Discussion:
WHAT'S THAT SMELL? ~ Pope's body 'prepared,' not embalmed
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The Kentucky Wizard
2005-04-06 06:37:57 UTC
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From CNN:

VATICAN CITY (AP) -- Departing from tradition, Pope John Paul II was not
embalmed, only "prepared" for viewing by hundreds of thousands of
mourners, the Vatican said Tuesday.

Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls did not elaborate on the
procedure, but an embalmer in Rome said it appeared John Paul's remains
were only touched up with cosmetics.

Massimo Signoracci, whose family embalmed three other popes, said he
could not be certain what had been done without examining the body.

Signoracci said even a light embalming would be necessary for a body
that is exposed for several days.

John Paul died Saturday night, and his remains were put on public view
late Monday on an open platform in St. Peter's Basilica. He will be
buried Friday.

Asked if there had been an autopsy, the Vatican spokesman said: "No, the
body was only prepared." He would not elaborate.

Historically, organs were removed to make embalming more durable. Relics
of 22 popes are kept in anaphors in Rome's St. Anastasio and Vincent
Church, near the Trevi fountain, from Sisto V who died in 1390 to Leo
XIII who died in 1903.

Pope Pius X, who reigned from 1903 to 1914, abolished the custom of
removing organs.

Embalming usually consists of draining the blood and other bodily fluids
and intravenously injecting formaldehyde and other preserving liquids.

Signoracci said his family had embalmed the remains of John XXIII in
1963, and of Paul VI and John Paul I, who both died in 1978.

Paul VI was only lightly embalmed before his body was placed before the
public during Rome's hot summer. But after two days the skin and
fingernails began losing their color.

John XXIII's body, by contrast, was in excellent condition when it was
exhumed from the cramped grotto under the basilica in 2001 -- 38 years
after his death -- and moved to the main floor following his
beatification.

John Paul, who expressed a will to be buried underground, will be placed
in John XXIII's vacant tomb.
--
© The Wiz ®
«¤»¥«¤»¥«¤»
Brad Ferguson
2005-04-06 07:47:45 UTC
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Post by The Kentucky Wizard
VATICAN CITY (AP) -- Departing from tradition, Pope John Paul II was not
embalmed, only "prepared" for viewing by hundreds of thousands of
mourners, the Vatican said Tuesday.
Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls did not elaborate on the
procedure, but an embalmer in Rome said it appeared John Paul's remains
were only touched up with cosmetics.
Massimo Signoracci, whose family embalmed three other popes, said he
could not be certain what had been done without examining the body.
Signoracci said even a light embalming would be necessary for a body
that is exposed for several days.
John Paul died Saturday night, and his remains were put on public view
late Monday on an open platform in St. Peter's Basilica. He will be
buried Friday.
Asked if there had been an autopsy, the Vatican spokesman said: "No, the
body was only prepared." He would not elaborate.
In 1958 an embalmer who claimed to be acquainted with "ancient Egyptian
embaliming methods" was hired to prepare the body of Pius XII for
public viewing. It was a very warm October and the Pope's body sort of
swelled up and ruptured after a couple of days on display, creating a
horrible and noisome mess. The Vatican had to close down, clean up,
and re-prepare Pius.
Post by The Kentucky Wizard
John XXIII's body, by contrast, was in excellent condition when it was
exhumed from the cramped grotto under the basilica in 2001 -- 38 years
after his death -- and moved to the main floor following his
beatification.
John's body may have been in good condition, but the faithful certainly
took the perfect preservation of his hands and features as a sign of
his saintliness and general suitability for canonization. It came out
a little later that John's face and hands were actually freshly taken
wax impressions from casts made at the time of John's death.

Always count your change.
doc
2005-04-06 20:51:35 UTC
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Post by Brad Ferguson
John's body may have been in good condition, but the faithful certainly
took the perfect preservation of his hands and features as a sign of his
saintliness and general suitability for canonization. It came out a
little later that John's face and hands were actually freshly taken wax
impressions from casts made at the time of John's death.
Indeed! That curiously idiosyncratic Catholic folklore about saintly
"incorruptibility" can be as much of an obstacle as a proof for
veneration. For example, when the body of universally-acclaimed vox populi
St. Francis of Assisi was disinterred a mere two years after his death, it
was found that Sister Earth had reclaimed all the soft tissue and most of
the osseous tissue of the man, much to the utter chargin and amazement of
prelates and disciples alike.

I daresay that Mother Teresa's earthly shell hardly remains incorruptible,
given the harsh climate of Calcutta. Of course, I can't say for certain
and I suppose the good Sisters of Charity are under trememdous pressure to
accomodate the demands of pilgrims for some object of veneration.

No doubt someone in the group has an update.
Brad Ferguson
2005-04-07 06:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by doc
Post by Brad Ferguson
John's body may have been in good condition, but the faithful certainly
took the perfect preservation of his hands and features as a sign of his
saintliness and general suitability for canonization. It came out a
little later that John's face and hands were actually freshly taken wax
impressions from casts made at the time of John's death.
Indeed! That curiously idiosyncratic Catholic folklore about saintly
"incorruptibility" can be as much of an obstacle as a proof for
veneration. For example, when the body of universally-acclaimed vox populi
St. Francis of Assisi was disinterred a mere two years after his death, it
was found that Sister Earth had reclaimed all the soft tissue and most of
the osseous tissue of the man, much to the utter chargin and amazement of
prelates and disciples alike.
I daresay that Mother Teresa's earthly shell hardly remains incorruptible,
given the harsh climate of Calcutta. Of course, I can't say for certain
and I suppose the good Sisters of Charity are under trememdous pressure to
accomodate the demands of pilgrims for some object of veneration.
No doubt someone in the group has an update.
This reminds me that some causes (that is, campaigns) for sainthood
have been derailed when they dug up the body to inspect it for
corruption, and found that some candidates who had been buried
prematurely had struggled in their coffins instead of calmly accepting
death. Struggling agfter having been buried alive was a bad thing.

St. Francis Xavier's right arm is mounted in a fancy glass box on a
wall in some church somewhere. I saw a picture of it once, and it was
pretty messed up. It looked like something you dug out of the swamp
after the latest round of chainsaw murders.

BTW, Mother Teresa's order is the Missionaries of Charity. The Sisters
of Charity were founded by Elizabeth Seton, and its members were my
childhood nemeses. I presume all the ones I knew are now on-topic, but
you never know.
Joe Pucillo
2005-04-07 13:58:55 UTC
Permalink
Wasn't it Brad Ferguson who said...
Post by Brad Ferguson
BTW, Mother Teresa's order is the Missionaries of Charity. The Sisters
of Charity were founded by Elizabeth Seton, and its members were my
childhood nemeses. I presume all the ones I knew are now on-topic, but
you never know.
And, you'd be surprised. When I entered kindergarten in 1965,
the principal of our parochial school was Sr. Mary Alberta VO5,
who was about 87 years old.

A couple of years ago, I travelled back to Philadelphia for a
reception celebrating the 75th anniversary of the parish, and was
amazed to re-acquaint myself with Sister, who left the school
when I entered first grade.

She appeared to be in her early 70s.

The funny thing is, I wasn't the only one who was surprised; as I
met each of my former classmates and those slightly older than
me, the first thing out of their mouths was, "Can you believe how
young Sister Alberta VO5 is???"

It's funny how certain nicknames will just "stick" with you...



JP
Hyfler/Rosner
2005-04-07 14:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Pucillo
And, you'd be surprised. When I entered kindergarten in
1965,
the principal of our parochial school was Sr. Mary Alberta
VO5,
who was about 87 years old.
A couple of years ago, I travelled back to Philadelphia
for a
reception celebrating the 75th anniversary of the parish,
and was
amazed to re-acquaint myself with Sister, who left the
school
when I entered first grade.
She appeared to be in her early 70s.
The funny thing is, I wasn't the only one who was
surprised; as I
met each of my former classmates and those slightly older
than
me, the first thing out of their mouths was, "Can you
believe how
young Sister Alberta VO5 is???"
It's funny how certain nicknames will just "stick" with
you...
Great story, JV.
Tregembo
2005-04-09 16:21:13 UTC
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MrPepper11
2005-04-09 15:48:11 UTC
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archie
2005-04-09 17:14:46 UTC
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Post by MrPepper11
Atmospheric conditions in the underground Vatican grottoes, combined
with the traditional method of papal burial in three caskets enclosing
one another, are conducive to natural mummification, Pascali said.
"With even minimal preservation, you will see skin that is dry and
leathery, but the degree of decomposition can be extremely low," he
said.
Wouldn't the body be putrified _instead of mummified_ in an airtight
environment?

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_092.html

...Under the most favorable circumstances, a body after six months in
the grave would simply be discolored and possibly covered with mold.
If the body has had the misfortune to have been sealed in an airtight
metal casket, though, anaerobic bacteria--that is, those that thrive
in an airless environment--will have had a chance to get to work, and
the body will have putrefied, meaning it will be partially liquefied.
The smell in such cases is indescribable. Simple wooden caskets,
believe it or not, often result in more gradual decomposition....
William Barger
2005-04-10 15:01:37 UTC
Permalink
I once worked for a funeral home/cemetary here in Florida. I will never
forget the day we had to dig up Donald Whalberg. His wife had decided to
take him back to Michigan. I was a novice, and didn't get the jest when
the guys in charge came and they all were smoking cigars. I thought
maybe one of their wives had a baby or something. We dug Donald up. A
boss told Mike the foreman to crack it. He opened the coffin, and I
immediately realized what the cigars were really for. Mr Whalberg looked
like something from the Thriller video (Jacko). Still had soft tissue
but his skin had turned black. Even though he really did not look real I
will still never forget that sight.
Bill
Louis Epstein
2005-05-09 02:24:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Kentucky Wizard
VATICAN CITY (AP) -- Departing from tradition, Pope John Paul II was not
embalmed, only "prepared" for viewing by hundreds of thousands of
mourners, the Vatican said Tuesday.
Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls did not elaborate on the
procedure, but an embalmer in Rome said it appeared John Paul's remains
were only touched up with cosmetics.
Massimo Signoracci, whose family embalmed three other popes, said he
could not be certain what had been done without examining the body.
Signoracci said even a light embalming would be necessary for a body
that is exposed for several days.
John Paul died Saturday night, and his remains were put on public view
late Monday on an open platform in St. Peter's Basilica. He will be
buried Friday.
Asked if there had been an autopsy, the Vatican spokesman said: "No, the
body was only prepared." He would not elaborate.
Historically, organs were removed to make embalming more durable. Relics
of 22 popes are kept in anaphors in Rome's St. Anastasio and Vincent
Church, near the Trevi fountain, from Sisto V who died in 1390 to Leo
XIII who died in 1903.
Pope Sixtus V died in 1590,not 1390.
("Sisto" is the Italian translation).

Sixtus I was the sixth pope.
Sixtus IV built the Sistine Chapel.
There has never yet been a Sixtus VI.


-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

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