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David Carson
2018-12-01 13:55:22 UTC
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https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-george-hw-bush-dead-94/story?id=44866630
Former President George H.W. Bush dead at 94
By ABC NEWS
Dec 1, 2018, 6:32 AM ET

George Herbert Walker Bush, the 41st president of the United States, has
died at age 94.

His death was announced by his family Friday night. The president's health
had been in decline in recent months.

"George Herbert Walker Bush, World War II naval aviator, Texas oil
pioneer, and 41st President of the United States of America, died on
November 30, 2018. He was 94 and is survived by his five children and
their spouses, 17 grandchildren, eight great grandchildren, and two
siblings," the former president's office said in a statement. "He was
preceded in death by his wife of 73 years, Barbara; his second child
Pauline "Robin" Bush; and his brothers Prescott and William or "Bucky"
Bush."

His son George W. Bush, who served as the country's 43rd president,
released a statement of his own from the family.

"Jeb, Neil, Marvin, Doro, and I are saddened to announce that after 94
remarkable years, our dear Dad has died," George W. Bush said. "George H.
W. Bush was a man of the highest character and the best dad a son or
daughter could ask for. The entire Bush family is deeply grateful for 41’s
life and love, for the compassion of those who have cared and prayed for
Dad, and for the condolences of our friends and fellow citizens."

The family said funeral arrangements would be announced "as soon as is
practical."

President Donald Trump sent a lengthy statement just past midnight on
Saturday on behalf of he and first lady Melania Trump.

"Melania and I join with a grieving Nation to mourn the loss of former
President George H.W. Bush, who passed away last night," Trump wrote.
"Through his essential authenticity, disarming wit, and unwavering
commitment to faith, family, and country, President Bush inspired
generations of his fellow Americans to public service—to be, in his words,
“a thousand points of light” illuminating the greatness, hope, and
opportunity of America to the world.

"Along with his full life of service to country, we will remember
President Bush for his devotion to family -- especially the love of his
life, Barbara," he continued. "His example lives on, and will continue to
stir future Americans to pursue a greater cause. Our hearts ache with his
loss, and we, with the American people, send our prayers to the entire
Bush family, as we honor the life and legacy of 41."

He sent a follow-up tweet Saturday morning from the G-20 summit in Buenos
Aires, Argentina, calling him a "truly wonderful man."

George H.W. Bush and Trump had a contentious relationship recently. Trump
did not attend first lady Barbara Bush's funeral, regularly took shots at
fellow 2016 presidential contender Jeb Bush and slammed Bush's famous
"thousand points of light" speech at a rally in July, saying, "Thousand
points of light, what the hell was that by the way? Thousands points of
light. What did that mean? Does anyone know?"

The former president had several health scares over the past year,
including one just days after his wife's funeral.

Bush was admitted to Houston Methodist Hospital with a blood infection on
April 22 -- two days after the funeral for his wife of 73 years, former
first lady Barbara Bush.

He is survived by his five children, including former President George W.
Bush and former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush.

Bush was with there his wife when she died at the age of 92 on April 17.

"He of course is broken-hearted to lose his beloved Barbara, his wife of
73 years. He held her hand all day and was at her side when [she] left
this good earth," a statement from his office said after her death. "But
it will not surprise all of you who know and love him, that he also is
being stoic and strong, and is being lifted up by his large and supportive
family."

Bush was a key part of his family’s political dynasty. His father was a
senator; and his son George W. Bush was president from 2001 to 2009.

He served two terms as President Ronald Reagan's second-in-command and
became the first incumbent vice president to be elected president since
Martin Van Buren in 1836.

But Bush's tenure in the White House was limited to four years. He was
defeated for re-election by Democrat Bill Clinton in 1992. A weakened
economy, a limited domestic agenda and a broken promise against raising
taxes contributed to Bush's defeat.

Bush was a one-time oil executive who spent years in government service,
including terms as CIA director, ambassador to the United Nations and
liaison to the People's Republic of China. He was also elected to the
House of Representatives as a congressman from Texas. Following his time
in the White House, he and his wife moved to Houston, where they led a
relatively quiet life.

Bush began experiencing health problems during his presidency. In 1991, he
was treated at a hospital for an irregular heartbeat. Doctors diagnosed
him as having Graves disease, a thyroid condition that, by coincidence,
his wife also had.

Bush experienced a recurrence of the irregular heartbeat in February 2000,
when he was attending a reception in Naples, Florida. He spent a night in
the hospital, but smiled and joked with reporters the next day.

In November 2012, he was admitted to a Houston hospital for bronchitis and
a chronic cough. He was expected to return home well before Christmas but
remained hospitalized after the holiday. Officials said he had a high
fever and had been placed on a liquids-only diet.

In 2017, the former president was admitted to the intensive care unit at
Houston Methodist Hospital to "address an acute respiratory problem
stemming from pneumonia," according to his office.

His family has said publicly that the former president was no longer able
to walk unassisted, a frustration for a man who enjoyed an active
lifestyle of golf, fishing, jogging and power walks on the beach near his
summer home in Maine.

Bush said he did not want age to slow him down. He made a parachute jump
from an airplane on his 90th birthday, and celebrated his 75th, 80th and
85th birthdays the same way.

In one of his last interviews, Bush reflected on his life, relishing the
love of family and friends.

"I've been very blessed, when you look around, compared to ... others,"
Bush told ABC News' "World News Tonight" anchor Diane Sawyer in June 2012.
"But you must feel responsibility to others. You must believe in serving
others. I think that's a fundamental tenet of my life."

World War II pilot

George Herbert Walker Bush was born on June 12, 1924, in Milton,
Massachusetts. He was the second oldest child in a family of four boys and
one girl. His parents were Prescott Sheldon Bush, an investment banker who
later would serve for 10 years in the U.S. Senate, and Dorothy Walker
Bush.

Growing up in Greenwich, Connecticut, George H.W. Bush had a privileged
childhood. He attended the exclusive Phillips Academy in Andover,
Massachusetts.

World War II broke out while he was at Phillips. Rather than go on and
attend Yale University immediately after prep school, Bush joined the
Navy.

Having graduated from Phillips Academy six months after the Japanese
attacked Pearl Harbor, Bush soon became the youngest combat aviation
officer in the war.

Bush flew 58 combat missions in the Pacific as a torpedo bomber pilot and
once was shot down by the Japanese in 1944. For his effort at bringing the
plane down and saving most of its crew, Bush was awarded the Distinguished
Flying Cross.

After the war, Bush entered Yale and graduated in less than three years
with a degree in economics. Nicknamed Poppy, the tall and lanky Bush
earned a Phi Beta Kappa key for high academic achievements and played
baseball and soccer for Yale.

Shortly after leaving the Navy, Bush married Barbara Pierce, who he met at
a country club dance when he was 17 and she was 16. They would eventually
have six children, one of whom died of leukemia before her fourth
birthday.

Two of their sons entered politics: George W. Bush became governor of
Texas before winning the 2000 election for president, while his younger
brother Jeb Bush became governor of Florida. Jeb Bush later ran for
president in 2016 and dropped out during the Republican primary.

Bush's political journey

Bush moved his growing family to Texas after college, where he formed an
independent oil exploration company.

But politics eventually came to be the focus of Bush's life. He made his
first foray as a candidate in 1964 with an ambitious but unsuccessful run
for the Senate.

Two years later, Bush was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives,
where he cast a vote in favor of President Lyndon Johnson's program for
open, nondiscriminatory federal housing.

The lure of a Senate seat prompted Bush to try again in 1970. This time,
Bush lost to Democrat Lloyd M. Bentsen Jr.


The two men would square off again 18 years later when Bentsen was the
running mate of Democratic presidential nominee Michael Dukakis. In the
second matchup, Bush was victorious.

Following his 1970 defeat, Presidents Richard M. Nixon and Gerald R. Ford
appointed Bush to a variety of high-profile positions: U.S. ambassador to
the United Nations, chairman of the Republican National Committee, liaison
to the People's Republic of China and director of the Central Intelligence
Agency.

Ford also considered naming Bush his vice president but opted instead to
give the job to Nelson A. Rockefeller. As a consolation, Ford offered Bush
his choice of ambassadorial assignments and Bush chose China. Bush left
the government in January 1977 when Jimmy Carter became president.

Vice president under Reagan

In 1978, believing that Carter was vulnerable, Bush began his first
campaign for the White House. Despite an early win in the 1980 Iowa
caucuses, Bush's campaign quickly lost momentum as Reagan overtook him to
capture the GOP nomination.

During the campaign, Bush described Reagan's plan to increase federal
revenues by lowering taxes as "voodoo economics." The remark got Bush
needed coverage on the campaign trail but came back to bite him when
Reagan chose Bush as his running mate and Bush had to become a cheerleader
for Reagan's economic plan.

The Reagan-Bush ticket easily defeated Carter and Vice President Walter
Mondale. Four years later, the Reagan-Bush team trounced Mondale and vice
presidential candidate Geraldine A. Ferraro.

Bush's eight years as vice president were spent mostly in the shadows. He
headed task forces on stopping the illegal drug trade and reducing federal
regulations.

Reagan often sent Bush abroad as his representative. Bush set an
attendance record at the funerals of foreign leaders, including those of
three Soviet leaders.

But it was Bush's participation in meetings of the National Security
Council that threatened his political career. The Reagan administration
secretly carried out the illegal sale of arms to Iran so the proceeds
could be funneled to rebels fighting a Marxist government in Nicaragua.

After the Iran-Contra affair was exposed, questions were raised about what
Bush knew of the secret program. Suspicions about Bush, however, had no
lasting political impact.

Victory in 1988

In 1988, Bush ran to succeed Reagan with two catchphrases. He spoke of
creating a "kinder, gentler nation" and he told voters, "Read my lips, no
new taxes." This last promise would become a problem for him; eventually
he would break his word.

Despite an early challenge from Sen. Bob Dole of Kansas, Bush captured the
GOP nomination and selected a little-known young senator, Dan Quayle of
Indiana, as his running mate. The choice surprised political analysts, but
delighted Democrats, who viewed Quayle as an intellectual lightweight.

The Democratic nominee, Massachusetts Gov. Michael Dukakis, enjoyed a
healthy lead in early campaign polls. But Bush waged an aggressive
campaign and cast Dukakis as a liberal, a dirty word after eight years of
Reagan. Bush easily won the general election with 53 percent of the vote
and a wide margin in the electoral college.

Success in foreign affairs

As president, Bush's greatest successes were in foreign policy. He built
on the relationships he developed as Reagan's vice president as well as in
his past life as a diplomat.

When Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein invaded neighboring Kuwait in August
1990, Bush saw the incursion as a threat to U.S. interests. Arab allies
urged U.S. involvement.

Bush assembled an international coalition and got the U.N. Security
Council to demand Iraq's immediate withdrawal from Kuwait. The council
authorized the use of force if Iraq stayed put. It was the first time
since World War II that the United States and the Soviet Union were allied
in a significant international crisis.

When Hussein refused to move, Bush succeeded in getting a reluctant
Congress to authorize force. The day after the U.N. deadline ended, Bush
launched "Operation Desert Storm" -- six weeks of round-the-clock air
strikes followed by a 100-hour ground campaign.

Iraqi forces left Kuwait and Bush enjoyed the highest approval ratings of
any president -- 91 percent in March 1991.

In January 2011, Bush marked the 20th anniversary of Desert Storm with his
national security team at a gathering of Republican foreign policy
heavyweights in College Station, Texas.

Bush credited his Cabinet and military team for their leadership and unity
during the planning and execution of the air and ground attacks that
liberated Kuwait from the invasion by Iraq.

"No president was ever better served by his foreign policy team," Bush
said at the event.

More than 500,000 Americans were deployed at the peak of the fighting. One
hundred and forty-eight service members were killed and 467 were wounded
in the conflict.

"There are probably things I could have done better," Bush said at the
event. "I honestly believe history will say we did this right."

The emir of Kuwait, Sheikh Sabah Al-Ahmed Al-Jaber Al-Sabah, cited Bush's
"decisive action" in 1991.

"The world is a safer place thanks to Desert Storm and to the strength of
the international community's response to Saddam Hussein's aggression," he
said.

Defeats at home

Despite his war against Iraq, Bush was never able to gain his footing in
the domestic arena, and his domestic problems would be his downfall.

A major crisis in the savings and loan industry happened early on Bush's
watch, and taxpayers were left paying most of the bill. Bush took a hit in
his support among American women when he nominated Clarence Thomas for the
Supreme Court and a former employee of Thomas' claimed he had sexually
harassed her.

Bush also had to confront a recession and rising unemployment figures. The
jobless rate rose from 5.3 percent in 1989 to 7.4 percent in 1992.

But his biggest problem was breaking his word on taxes. Faced with the
dilemma of paying for the Persian Gulf War, the savings and loan bailout
and a weakened economy, Bush agreed to a budget plan with Congress that
raised some taxes and gave up on his plan to cut the tax on capital gains.

In the end, nobody was happy. Democrats said the tax hike hit the poorest
Americans hardest. Republicans hated the capital gains retreat.

In the 1992 primaries, Bush faced a surprisingly strong challenge from the
conservative political columnist Patrick Buchanan. In the general
election, he lost votes to H. Ross Perot, a populist third-party
candidate. And Clinton, the Democratic nominee, proved to be a masterful
politician.

The fall campaign was intense -- Bush once called Clinton a "bozo" from
the stump -- but the two men later became friends -- raising money for
victims of the devastating 2004 tsunami in Asia and then more than $100
million for Hurricane Katrina relief in 2006.

During the transition phase in leaving the White House, Bush left a letter
for Clinton wishing him “great happiness.”

“Your success now is our country’s success. I am rooting hard for you,”
the letter read.

Bush on life, family and lasting friendships

"I don't know what would happen, I don't know where I'd be in life if I
wasn't blessed with a lot of kids and grandkids and family, including, of
course, Barbara," Bush told ABC News' Sawyer in 2012. "Family means
everything to me. And we're blessed a with lot of 'em.... We take great
pride in what they do and what their plans are for the future. And through
-- through their eyes, I think of life a lot."

The newest member of the family at the time was Bush's
great-granddaughter, Georgia Helena Walker Bush, who was born in summer
2011.

"I have a little worry that I won't be around to see her grow much older.
But it's not a fearsome thing," the former president said.

Bush said he was coming to terms with his own mortality and believed in an
afterlife.

"I've wondered about [heaven]. Who you see when you get there. Who do you
look up? How do you find them? There's a lot of people there. Maybe you
look around, find some didn't make it, too. ... I don't know how that
works. I don't think anybody knows," he said. "I don't fear it, though.

"When I was a little guy, I feared death. I'd worry about it. I'd be
scared. Not anymore."

Bush's life story was also the topic of an HBO documentary titled "41,"
which premiered in June 2012.

Huma Khan, Karen Travers, Ben Forer, Margaret Aro, Tess Scott, Veronica
Stracqualursi, Gina Sunseri and The Associated Press contributed to this
report.
--
Dead or Alive Data Base
http://www.doadb.com
David Carson
2018-12-01 14:10:45 UTC
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Post by David Carson
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-george-hw-bush-dead-94/story?id=44866630
Former President George H.W. Bush dead at 94
By ABC NEWS
Dec 1, 2018, 6:32 AM ET
George Herbert Walker Bush, the 41st president of the United States, has
died at age 94.
Bush was the oldest former president in history, at 94 years, 171 days.
Jimmy Carter can break that record by surviving to 22 March 2019.

When Bush was born, Calvin Coolidge, the 30th president, was 51. The only
living former president was William Howard Taft, age 66. There were nine
future presidents living at the time, besides himself: Hoover (49), F. D.
Roosevelt (42), Truman (40), Eisenhower (33), Kennedy (7), Johnson (15),
Nixon (11), Ford (10), and Reagan (13).

When Bush was sworn in at age 64, outgoing President Ronald Reagan was 77.
Former Presidents Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, and Jimmy Carter were 76,
75, and 64, respectively. There were at least four living future
presidents: Clinton (42), G. W. Bush (42), Obama (27), and Trump (42).

On the date of Bush's death, President Donald Trump was 72. Former
Presidents Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama
were 94, 72, 72, and 57, respectively.

For more, see U.S. Presidents Day by Day:
http://www.doadb.com/presidents.htm

David Carson
m***@gmail.com
2018-12-01 19:05:20 UTC
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"The world is a safer place thanks to Desert Storm and to the strength of
the international community's response to Saddam Hussein's aggression," he
said.

And April Glaspie gave Saddam the go-ahead to take over Kuwait.
Sanford Manley
2018-12-01 19:20:23 UTC
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Post by David Carson
"The world is a safer place thanks to Desert Storm and to the strength of
the international community's response to Saddam Hussein's aggression," he
said.
And April Glaspie gave Saddam the go-ahead to take over Kuwait.
From everything I have read and understood, this was not
her intent, but the record is not clear:

One version of the transcript has Glaspie saying:

We can see that you have deployed massive numbers
of troops in the south. Normally that would be none of
our business, but when this happens in the context of
your threats against Kuwait, then it would be reasonable
for us to be concerned. For this reason, I have received
an instruction to ask you, in the spirit of friendship —
not confrontation — regarding your intentions: Why are
your troops massed so very close to Kuwait's borders?

Later the transcript has Glaspie saying:

We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts,
such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary Baker
has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first
given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is
not associated with America.

Another version of the transcript (the one published in
The New York Times on 23 September 1990) has Glaspie saying:

But we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts,
like your border disagreement with Kuwait. I was in
the American Embassy in Kuwait during the late 1960s.
The instruction we had during this period was that we
should express no opinion on this issue and that the
issue is not associated with America. James Baker has
directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this
instruction. We hope you can solve this problem using
any suitable methods via Klibi (Chedli Klibi, Secretary
General of the Arab League) or via President Mubarak.
All that we hope is that these issues are solved quickly.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-12-02 01:22:04 UTC
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Post by Sanford Manley
Post by David Carson
"The world is a safer place thanks to Desert Storm and to the strength of
the international community's response to Saddam Hussein's aggression," he
said.
And April Glaspie gave Saddam the go-ahead to take over Kuwait.
From everything I have read and understood, this was not
That's diplomacy!
Post by Sanford Manley
We can see that you have deployed massive numbers
of troops in the south. Normally that would be none of
our business, but when this happens in the context of
your threats against Kuwait, then it would be reasonable
for us to be concerned. For this reason, I have received
an instruction to ask you, in the spirit of friendship —
not confrontation — regarding your intentions: Why are
your troops massed so very close to Kuwait's borders?
We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts,
such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary Baker
has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first
given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is
not associated with America.
Another version of the transcript (the one published in
But we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts,
like your border disagreement with Kuwait. I was in
the American Embassy in Kuwait during the late 1960s.
The instruction we had during this period was that we
should express no opinion on this issue and that the
issue is not associated with America. James Baker has
directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this
instruction. We hope you can solve this problem using
any suitable methods via Klibi (Chedli Klibi, Secretary
General of the Arab League) or via President Mubarak.
All that we hope is that these issues are solved quickly.
Yeah

She had the opportunity to be the hero, to divert Saddam's attention,
but she went another way.

At the moment war is on the verge of breaking out, diplomacy has failed.
The time has come to use clear language: Do no invade. The world will
oppose you.

If you weren't a diplomat, isn't that what you would have said?
J.D. Baldwin
2018-12-02 03:12:12 UTC
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Post by Sanford Manley
Post by m***@gmail.com
And April Glaspie gave Saddam the go-ahead to take over Kuwait.
From everything I have read and understood, this was not
I happen to be quite a conspiracy nut on this one. However, in this
case no one has been able to substantively refute the conspiracy
theory.

April Glaspie said the things you wrote. There is no chance that a
professional diplomat says something like that by accident. It was
absolutely calculated to send a specific signal.

Later, Bush 41 claimed that he wanted Saddam to withdraw from Kuwait.
There is zero question in my mind that he wanted no such thing.
Somewhere along the way, the U.S. national security leadership decided
that Iraq had to be de-industrialized to some degree. I don't pretend
to know why. I don't think it's as simple as "stealing oil" (which is
usually a pretty effing dumb theory of international geopolitics
anyway). I don't even know for sure that it was a bad thing. (I
didn't support the war at the time, and have no regrets about that
position.) But the notion that Bush 41 wanted a peaceful resolution
is laughable.

Bush 41 repeatedly demanded the most humiliating possible resolution
for Iraq: absolute unilateral capitulation with no negotiated
settlement. He openly referred to him as "SAHD-amm," which is the
Arabic word for "shoe-shine boy." (I had a Lebanese student at the
time who explained this to me.) He talked about a "line in the sand,"
leaving no possibility of a face-saving fig leaf for Saddam. Given
Bush 41's diplomatic credentials (and those of his cabinet), the
notion that any of this was accidental or miscalculated is utterly
ridiculous. Everything was scripted right from the start: bait
Saddam into invading Kuwait, then back him into a corner so he loses
all face if he leaves. Then use that as an excuse to get a couple of
dozen countries to pretend to participate in a U.S. ass-whupping.

I'm open to a number of theories as to *why* the Bush 41
Administration did all of this. I have looked at it from all sides,
read everything I could about the war, listened carefully to people
who desperately *want* to refute any of this (but sadly have no actual
fact-based arguments supporting them) ... and there is no conclusion
to be drawn but that one.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone objects to any statement I make, I am
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it.-T. Lehrer
***~~~~----------------------------------------------------------------------
danny burstein
2018-12-02 03:23:30 UTC
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Post by J.D. Baldwin
Bush 41 repeatedly demanded the most humiliating possible resolution
for Iraq: absolute unilateral capitulation with no negotiated
settlement. He openly referred to him as "SAHD-amm," which is the
Arabic word for "shoe-shine boy."
Humble. And lovable.

dannyb pretty much agrees with the rest of your assessment, but
wonders just how much more influence the Brits had in the background.

People in the US (or under the US sphere of influence, so to
speak) tend not to realize how much power (both real and
make believe) the folk at Downing Street have.

A decade ago, when Aahmadinejad gave his speech at the UN,
he cursed and ranted and raved about the Brits. It was only
at the end that he kind of added an, oh yeah, the US, too.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
***@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
David Carson
2018-12-03 00:08:01 UTC
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On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 03:12:12 +0000 (UTC),
Post by J.D. Baldwin
I happen to be quite a conspiracy nut on this one. However, in this
case no one has been able to substantively refute the conspiracy
theory.
All conspiracy theories are irrefutable. That's one of the main things
that distinguishes them from ordinary theories.
J.D. Baldwin
2018-12-03 03:56:54 UTC
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Post by David Carson
All conspiracy theories are irrefutable. That's one of the main
things that distinguishes them from ordinary theories.
9/11 trooferism and multiple-gunmen-killed-JFK are easily refuted.
You can't get their proponents to admit their flaw, but that is not
the same thing I was describing.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone objects to any statement I make, I am
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it.-T. Lehrer
***~~~~----------------------------------------------------------------------
danny burstein
2018-12-03 04:17:24 UTC
Reply
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Post by J.D. Baldwin
Post by David Carson
All conspiracy theories are irrefutable. That's one of the main
things that distinguishes them from ordinary theories.
9/11 trooferism and multiple-gunmen-killed-JFK are easily refuted.
You can't get their proponents to admit their flaw, but that is not
the same thing I was describing.
Mostly true, but the "Secret Service Agent shooting back
at the gunman hit JFK" scenario seems at least plausable.

If you have a definitive finding that says no, it ain't,
I'd love to hear it. (I'm being serious).
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
***@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
J.D. Baldwin
2018-12-03 14:04:50 UTC
Reply
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Post by danny burstein
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Post by David Carson
All conspiracy theories are irrefutable. That's one of the main
things that distinguishes them from ordinary theories.
9/11 trooferism and multiple-gunmen-killed-JFK are easily refuted.
You can't get their proponents to admit their flaw, but that is not
the same thing I was describing.
Mostly true, but the "Secret Service Agent shooting back
at the gunman hit JFK" scenario seems at least plausable.
I won't argue that it's absolutely impossible. But it's a pretty wild
conjecture, and the evidence supporting it is really thin at best and
contradicts known facts at worse. And for the record, I think JFK's
assassination *was* a conspiracy -- just not one involving multiple
assassins at the scene.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone objects to any statement I make, I am
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it.-T. Lehrer
***~~~~----------------------------------------------------------------------
m***@gmail.com
2018-12-04 01:20:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Post by danny burstein
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Post by David Carson
All conspiracy theories are irrefutable. That's one of the main
things that distinguishes them from ordinary theories.
9/11 trooferism and multiple-gunmen-killed-JFK are easily refuted.
You can't get their proponents to admit their flaw, but that is not
the same thing I was describing.
Mostly true, but the "Secret Service Agent shooting back
at the gunman hit JFK" scenario seems at least plausable.
I won't argue that it's absolutely impossible. But it's a pretty wild
conjecture, and the evidence supporting it is really thin at best and
contradicts known facts at worse. And for the record, I think JFK's
assassination *was* a conspiracy -- just not one involving multiple
assassins at the scene.
I agree, Oswald had help, but not on the ground.

David Carson
2018-12-03 04:53:33 UTC
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Permalink
On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 03:56:54 +0000 (UTC),
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Post by David Carson
All conspiracy theories are irrefutable. That's one of the main
things that distinguishes them from ordinary theories.
9/11 trooferism and multiple-gunmen-killed-JFK are easily refuted.
You can't get their proponents to admit their flaw, but that is not
the same thing I was describing.
But that's just exactly the thing. You can never refute conspiracy
theories because the people who believe them will always explain away your
proof somehow. "Ah, yes," they will say, "people have tried many times to
prove me wrong, but no one has!" I trust that you have read or heard some
arguments against your theory about Bush, Saddam, and Kuwait. To the
person or people making those arguments, they consider it refuted. You
don't.

I'm not criticizing your theory and am certainly not criticizing your
intelligence, but your belief that your conspiracy theory isn't like most
others because they can be refuted, whereas yours hasn't been, is a bit of
circular logic that I'm trying to snap you out of.
Terry del Fuego
2018-12-03 13:54:26 UTC
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Post by David Carson
But that's just exactly the thing. You can never refute conspiracy
theories because the people who believe them will always explain away your
proof somehow.
Refutation does not, in my "mind", imply that those who have been
definitively proven wrong are convinced. Evidence exists separately
from the prejudices of those presented with it.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/refute
J.D. Baldwin
2018-12-03 13:58:39 UTC
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Post by David Carson
I'm not criticizing your theory and am certainly not criticizing
your intelligence, but your belief that your conspiracy theory isn't
like most others because they can be refuted, whereas yours hasn't
been, is a bit of circular logic that I'm trying to snap you out of.
What Terry said.

I'm not saying that many have tried to convince me that I am wrong but
I find that their arguments are flawed. I am saying that THEY DON'T
EVEN TRY. Some shrug it off with "Huh, that's an interesting take."
Or they dismiss it with "Have you tried making a helmet out of
tinfoil?" (Paraphrased.)
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone objects to any statement I make, I am
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it.-T. Lehrer
***~~~~----------------------------------------------------------------------
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