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OT: AbsurdityWatch: NY state to ban single-use plastic bags
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That Derek
2019-03-29 04:27:51 UTC
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Ironically, this bill will be voted on and more than likely be passes by the NY State legislature this coming Monday -- April Fools' Day!

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2019/03/27/plastic-bags-new-york-nears-ban-plastic-fee-paper/3290741002/

https://www.newsday.com/news/region-state/plastic-bag-ban-1.29089926
David Carson
2019-03-29 12:33:02 UTC
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Post by That Derek
Ironically, this bill will be voted on and more than likely be passes by the NY State legislature this coming Monday -- April Fools' Day!
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2019/03/27/plastic-bags-new-york-nears-ban-plastic-fee-paper/3290741002/
https://www.newsday.com/news/region-state/plastic-bag-ban-1.29089926
Don't any of these legislators own pets? To most indoor cat owners, and
dog owners in the cities and suburbs, there is no such thing as a
"single-use plastic bag."
Meteorite Debris
2019-03-30 08:34:45 UTC
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On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 21:27:51 -0700 (PDT) that great scribe That Derek
Post by That Derek
Ironically, this bill will be voted on and more than likely be passes by the NY State legislature this coming Monday -- April Fools' Day!
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2019/03/27/plastic-bags-new-york-nears-ban-plastic-fee-paper/3290741002/
https://www.newsday.com/news/region-state/plastic-bag-ban-1.29089926
Do a postmortem on sea turtles or sea birds and you will soon see the
necessity to reduce the level of plastic use. Banning single use plastic
bags is one way of doing that. The clue is - humans are not the only
species on earth and our waste does not only affect us.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-30 15:20:39 UTC
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Post by Meteorite Debris
Post by That Derek
Ironically, this bill will be voted on and more than likely be passes by the NY State legislature this coming Monday -- April Fools' Day!
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2019/03/27/plastic-bags-new-york-nears-ban-plastic-fee-paper/3290741002/
https://www.newsday.com/news/region-state/plastic-bag-ban-1.29089926
Do a postmortem on sea turtles or sea birds and you will soon see the
necessity to reduce the level of plastic use. Banning single use plastic
bags is one way of doing that. The clue is - humans are not the only
species on earth and our waste does not only affect us.
Wow. I had no idea that your ability to take a cheap shot due to your
expertise in All Things extended to post mortems in marine biology.

The desire to ban plastic waste goes back decades, and was related to
birds getting caught in garbage, and medium-sized ground animals getting
caught in rings from six packs of aluminum cans. I'm sure somebody took
a picture of some cute animal caught in plastic debris, and that picture
was widely reprinted.

The desire to ban plastic waste to save sea turtles came from a
photograph,undoubtably fake, showing a turtle with a straw stuck
up its nose. One wonders why the supposed environmentalist didn't just
help the turtle immediately instead of posing it for the picture.
Suddenly, you can't find straws nor stir sticks in restaurants whose
garbage couldn't possible affect any sea turtle.

The actual truth of the matter is that ANY material waste, no matter how
benign, beomes a pollutant upon improper disposal. ANY material.

Therefore, picking and choosing some common material waste to ban is merely
feel good legislation that accomplishes nearly nothing. No significant
number of animals will benefit.

As others pointed out in this very thread (which you failed to read due
to reading comprehension problems), the unintended consequence of banning
"single use" plastic bags is making it more difficult for dog owners to
pick up and properly dispose of dog shit. If dog shit isn't regularly
cleaned up, that feeds the rat and mouse population.

Does New York have a rat shortage? Wow. I just had no idea.

Apparently your vast knowledge of cheap shots ignores communicable
diseases spread by rats and mice in cities.

As long as so-called environmentalists are able to con suckers like you,
it completely distracts from extremely serious problems of improper
garbage disposal, like those massive "debris islands" in the ocean that
can be hundreds of miles long. Those are created by commercial fisherman
who simply abandon massive fishing nets at sea instead of disposing of
them properly back at the port.

Other problems of the ocean are massive fish kills caused by inadequate
amounts of dissolved oxygen at certain depths.

But yeah. Let's concentrate on nonsense like this because addressing
truly serious problems is too hard and it's just best to distract
ourselves from thinking about them.
That Derek
2019-03-30 14:25:56 UTC
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Yes, I am all for reducing landfill waste and making this planet more habitable for marine life.

However, no governmental body -- state, local, or federal -- should be in the business of regulating something mundane like shopping bags and drinking straws.

Awareness efforts should be ramped up to discourage us Terrans from excessive plastic bag usage. However, removing a personal choice dynamic and vilifying non-compliers is definitely not the answer.
t***@iwvisp.com
2019-03-30 14:47:41 UTC
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Because awareness efforts have worked so well to limit everything else that’s killing us and the planet!

The plastic bag ban has been in effect in CA for 2 or 3 years with no complaints. Even a lot of the right wingers supported it. All the stores now sell heavier reusable plastic backs for a dime each. Now I have a plastic bag full of better plastic bags. Also, for dog and cat people, all the Dollar type Stores sell poop bags, 50 for a dollar.

Ray Arthur
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-30 15:58:03 UTC
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Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Because awareness efforts have worked so well to limit everything else
that’s killing us and the planet!
The plastic bag ban has been in effect in CA for 2 or 3 years with no
complaints.
I'm sure that's a huge lie.

Tell us about how all the doggie waste is being cleaned up magically.
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Even a lot of the right wingers supported it.
I'm sure that's a huge lie too.
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
All the stores now sell heavier reusable plastic backs for a dime
each. Now I have a plastic bag full of better plastic bags.
And you ALWAYS have a bag on you and remember to bring it into the
store, right?
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Also, for dog and cat people, all the Dollar type Stores sell poop bags,
50 for a dollar.
Wow. That's just higher transportation cost, then, given the need to
create an all-new category of consumer products. Brilliant!

I've never seen a "cat person" take his cat for a walk in the park, then
clean up after.
t***@iwvisp.com
2019-03-30 18:13:05 UTC
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Yes Adam, I interrupted my Saturday morning to invent and post a series of lies to argue with an Asshat on a dying newsgroup. You’ve reminded me why I only check in here a few times a year.

Ray Arthur
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-30 22:27:38 UTC
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Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Because awareness efforts have worked so well to limit everything else
that's killing us and the planet!
The plastic bag ban has been in effect in CA for 2 or 3 years with no
complaints.
I'm sure that's a huge lie.
Tell us about how all the doggie waste is being cleaned up magically.
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Even a lot of the right wingers supported it.
I'm sure that's a huge lie too.
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
All the stores now sell heavier reusable plastic backs for a dime
each. Now I have a plastic bag full of better plastic bags.
And you ALWAYS have a bag on you and remember to bring it into the
store, right?
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Also, for dog and cat people, all the Dollar type Stores sell poop bags,
50 for a dollar.
Wow. That's just higher transportation cost, then, given the need to
create an all-new category of consumer products. Brilliant!
I've never seen a "cat person" take his cat for a walk in the park, then
clean up after.
Yes Adam, I interrupted my Saturday morning to invent and post a series
of lies to argue with an Asshat on a dying newsgroup. You’ve reminded
me why I only check in here a few times a year.
That you post infrequently and get oh-so-dramatic has nothing to do with
whether you get to declare yourself spokesman for everybody else.

I live in a ban-the-bag community. Of course there have been
plenty of complaints. Merchants tend to hear about it. They get blamed
for bad customer service, not one's elected officials who imposed it.

I do bring my own bags to shop... when I remember in advance. When I
don't, or if I decide at the last minute to shop, it's a pain in the ass
that the merchant won't give the shopper a free sack any longer.

You don't get to speak for right wingers either. It was a stupid statement
on your part, for ban-the-bag isn't a left-versus-right issue but an issue
of control versus trusting people to dispose of their trash properly, and
in accord with laws ALREADY on the books requiring proper waste handling.

You're perfectly free to offer your own opinion. You are NOT free to
offer to speak for anyone else, certainly not for me.
t***@iwvisp.com
2019-03-31 00:08:36 UTC
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Well, your response is mostly bullshit and wannabe keyboard warrior/troll bravado but your last paragraph is specifically wrong. This is an unmoderated group and has been since at least the mid 1990’s when I first arrived, back when it was primarily On Topic about Obits and occasionally baseball. So I DO get to post anything I want.

Ray Arthur
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-31 06:13:33 UTC
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Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Because awareness efforts have worked so well to limit everything else
that's killing us and the planet!
The plastic bag ban has been in effect in CA for 2 or 3 years with no
complaints.
I'm sure that's a huge lie.
Tell us about how all the doggie waste is being cleaned up magically.
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Even a lot of the right wingers supported it.
I'm sure that's a huge lie too.
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
All the stores now sell heavier reusable plastic backs for a dime
each. Now I have a plastic bag full of better plastic bags.
And you ALWAYS have a bag on you and remember to bring it into the
store, right?
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Also, for dog and cat people, all the Dollar type Stores sell poop bags,
50 for a dollar.
Wow. That's just higher transportation cost, then, given the need to
create an all-new category of consumer products. Brilliant!
I've never seen a "cat person" take his cat for a walk in the park, then
clean up after.
Yes Adam, I interrupted my Saturday morning to invent and post a series
of lies to argue with an Asshat on a dying newsgroup. You’ve reminded
me why I only check in here a few times a year.
That you post infrequently and get oh-so-dramatic has nothing to do with
whether you get to declare yourself spokesman for everybody else.
I live in a ban-the-bag community. Of course there have been
plenty of complaints. Merchants tend to hear about it. They get blamed
for bad customer service, not one's elected officials who imposed it.
I do bring my own bags to shop... when I remember in advance. When I
don't, or if I decide at the last minute to shop, it's a pain in the ass
that the merchant won't give the shopper a free sack any longer.
You don't get to speak for right wingers either. It was a stupid statement
on your part, for ban-the-bag isn't a left-versus-right issue but an issue
of control versus trusting people to dispose of their trash properly, and
in accord with laws ALREADY on the books requiring proper waste handling.
You're perfectly free to offer your own opinion. You are NOT free to
offer to speak for anyone else, certainly not for me.
Well, your response is mostly bullshit and wannabe keyboard
warrior/troll bravado but your last paragraph is specifically wrong.
I had to restore the quotes, again, because you are too dishonest to
retain them.
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
This is an unmoderated group and has been since at least the mid
1990's when I first arrived, back when it was primarily On Topic about
Obits and occasionally baseball. So I DO get to post anything I want.
No, you really don't. When you get caught posting lies on Usenet and
speaking for anyone other than yourself, expect to get called on it.

You don't get to whine about getting called on posting lies.

You're right: There's no moderator in unmoderated Usenet to ban you from
posting lies and to keep you from whining. That's up to you.

When you next behave like a jerk on Usenet, you'll get called on it again.

All you had to do was state that you agree with the California
legislation, and offer your reasons. You get to state your own opinion.
You do not get to tell lies that there have been "no complaints" and
"Even a lot of the right wingers supported it."

Has the clue penetrated yet?
t***@iwvisp.com
2019-03-31 13:03:44 UTC
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See above.
J.D. Baldwin
2019-03-31 00:33:24 UTC
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Post by Adam H. Kerman
I live in a ban-the-bag community.
As do I. It's idiotic. Not content to ruin roads, flush toilets,
shower heads and other basic amenities of civilization, now these
idiot hippie liberals want to destroy basic conveniences of commerce.

We aren't running out of landfill space. Anyone who claims we are is
an idiot or a liar or a combination of the two.

American consumer goods made of plastic are not the cause of plastic
content that harms marine life. Anyone who claims it is, etc., etc.
That big plastic garbage "island" in the Pacific? Almost entirely
discarded fishing gear from Micronesia, Africa and Asia.

And, no, there aren't any good alternatives to free plastic bags. The
effect for me has been to drive my car one city over so I can shop in
a store that isn't forbidden from giving me a cheap, easy way to
transport my purchases from A to B. The cashiers there say they hear
from a *lot* of customers who are doing the same. I used to walk with
my groceries from two blocks away. Great job saving the
"environment," there, idiots.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
I do bring my own bags to shop... when I remember in advance. When I
don't, or if I decide at the last minute to shop, it's a pain in the
ass that the merchant won't give the shopper a free sack any longer.
Where I live they aren't even allowed to give you a paper bag. You
can get one, but there's a 200-500% tax on it (depending how much you
think the bags cost in the first place).
Post by Adam H. Kerman
You don't get to speak for right wingers either. It was a stupid
statement on your part, for ban-the-bag isn't a left-versus-right
issue but an issue of control [...]
That is precisely what it is. Politicians who want to virtue-signal
by running the minutiae of other people's lives for them. In the case
of my town, the mayor openly crows about how the genesis of this idea
came from fourth-graders. Public policy is now literally being made
by children who can't do long division.

I like it here, but I'm looking forward to the day I retire out west.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone objects to any statement I make, I am
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it.-T. Lehrer
***~~~~----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael OConnor
2019-03-31 01:31:42 UTC
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Post by J.D. Baldwin
That is precisely what it is. Politicians who want to virtue-signal
by running the minutiae of other people's lives for them. In the case
of my town, the mayor openly crows about how the genesis of this idea
came from fourth-graders. Public policy is now literally being made
by children who can't do long division.
Like the 9-year old kid who was doing the recycling project for school and was trying to figure out how many plastic straws Americans were adding to landfills each day, and made up the number 500 million. The pro-recycling groups ran with it immediately as though it was gospel and used that number to pressure towns and companies to banning and phasing out the use of plastic straws in favor of shitty paper straws. Trying to visualize this kid come up with the number "500 million" must have been like the scene in the Superman movie when Richard Pryor was trying to figure out what was in Kryptonite so he could re-create it in a lab to kill Superman, and the computer said there was two percent "unknown" in Kryptonite, and he looked down at his pack of cigarettes and put "Tar" in place of "unknown".
Terry del Fuego
2019-04-01 13:12:32 UTC
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On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 00:33:24 +0000 (UTC),
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Public policy is now literally being made
by children who can't do long division.
Yes, we know that Tr*mp won, but I've been enjoying how rarely it gets
mentioned here.

As for bags, the first thing I noticed when I started with cloth ones
years ago is that I need fewer of them because they hold more without
self-destructing. As far as I'm concerned, it immediately became more
convenience than curse.

It helps that my sister is good with a sewing machine and has made
some nice ones that occasionally get compliments from cashiers.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-04-01 13:39:24 UTC
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Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Public policy is now literally being made
by children who can't do long division.
Yes, we know that Tr*mp won, but I've been enjoying how rarely it gets
mentioned here.
As for bags, the first thing I noticed when I started with cloth ones
years ago is that I need fewer of them because they hold more without
self-destructing. As far as I'm concerned, it immediately became more
convenience than curse.
It helps that my sister is good with a sewing machine and has made
some nice ones that occasionally get compliments from cashiers.
Wow. That sure is convenient for the environment that your sister does
all this work.

And what do you do for shopping at times when you intend to buy
something but didn't bring the reusable bag with you, and the merchant
is restricted from providing you with a sack?

Another reusable bag just magically appears at the checkoutG?

Sometimes, it's a really good idea to throw a bag away, say when
groceries include raw meat in packaging that one cannot count on as
preventing the transfer of E.coli from packaging to bag (because there's
always E.coli on the outside of meat packages) or that the package
simply leaked. There is MORE potential harm by attempting to reuse that
bag versus disposing of it properly.

Best not to think about feel-good so-called environmental laws and their
unintended consequences.
Terry del Fuego
2019-04-01 16:12:24 UTC
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On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 13:39:24 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Wow. That sure is convenient for the environment that your sister does
all this work.
Remember that time you were actually trying to make a serious point in
good faith? It's OK, no one else remembers it either.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
And what do you do for shopping at times when you intend to buy
something but didn't bring the reusable bag with you, and the merchant
is restricted from providing you with a sack?
"The merchant is restricted from providing you with a sack" is a
figment of your imagination. Yesterday, when I found myself in exactly
that situation, I spent a dime for a bag.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Another reusable bag just magically appears at the checkoutG?
I'm not sure what a "checkoutG" is, but in many (all?) of the stores
where I shop, yes, a reusable bag magically appears. Of course,
sometimes I neither need nor want one and simply carry out whatever I
bought. It does bother me knowing that this makes me morally
equivalent to the engineers of the Holocaust, but somehow I still get
myself out of bed every morning.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
There is MORE potential harm by attempting to reuse that
bag versus disposing of it properly.
Absolutely. Also, sometimes the only reasonable dental treatment is
extraction, so all teeth should be pulled the instant they erupt. And
some children grow up to become murderers, so all pregnancies must be
aborted.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Best not to think about feel-good so-called environmental laws and their
unintended consequences.
You're a lot of things, but I'd never call you a hypocrite. You're
suggesting that no one think and you're clearly following your own
advice.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-04-03 04:23:03 UTC
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Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Wow. That sure is convenient for the environment that your sister does
all this work.
Remember that time you were actually trying to make a serious point in
good faith? It's OK, no one else remembers it either.
We're going by what you yourself told us, that it's your sister making
this cloth sacks.

Your sister is the one making the effort to save the environment, not you.
Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by Adam H. Kerman
And what do you do for shopping at times when you intend to buy
something but didn't bring the reusable bag with you, and the merchant
is restricted from providing you with a sack?
"The merchant is restricted from providing you with a sack" is a
figment of your imagination. Yesterday, when I found myself in exactly
that situation, I spent a dime for a bag.
Oh my, so that law doesn't do any good at all. You obtained a plastic
sack, and you utterly destroyed the environment with it.

Just by coincidence, here's a report on a Denmark government study of
cotton tote bags versus plastic bags, and the severe negative impact
their manufacture has on the environment; the study didn't look at
consequences of poor disposal practices.

Cotton tote bags are an environmental disaster with respect to climate
change, ozone depletion, and especially water use.

Your cotton tote is pretty much the worst replacement for a plastic bag
By Zoe Schlanger April 1, 2019
https://qz.com/1585027/when-it-comes-to-climate-change-cotton-totes-might-be-worse-than-plastic/
Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Another reusable bag just magically appears at the checkoutG?
I'm not sure what a "checkoutG" is,
Oh, my. A spelling flame! You win Usenet. The rest of the pointless
paragraphs snipped.
Terry del Fuego
2019-04-03 12:51:27 UTC
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On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 04:23:03 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Your sister is the one making the effort to save the environment, not you.
I never claimed to be saving or accomplishing anything beyond
obtaining an increased level of personal convenience. I have not
expressed an opinion as to whether or not I approve of the law or
whether or not I think it will accomplish its stated goals, largely
because I truly don't know (though I admit to being skeptical).

What I *have* been doing is arguing with your idiotic, hysterical
misrepresentations and exaggerations, which I see you are continuing
to engage in.

Hey, sometimes I do shit like that too. It can be fun.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Oh, my. A spelling flame!
Yes. It gives me a special little tingle when hysterical idiots
undercut their own bullshit. A *very* special little tingle.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-04-03 15:15:51 UTC
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Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Your sister is the one making the effort to save the environment, not you.
I never claimed to be saving or accomplishing anything beyond
obtaining an increased level of personal convenience. I have not
expressed an opinion as to whether or not I approve of the law or
whether or not I think it will accomplish its stated goals, largely
because I truly don't know (though I admit to being skeptical).
You really enjoy hearing yourself talk. That's a whole lot of words and
several followups in which you finally admitted that you're just
shooting off your mouth and never had anything worthwhile to say.

Your sister does all the work; you make no effort. Your own story put
you in a terrible light.

It's interesting, given that I found an article written about an
actual government study in which the environmental benefits of cloth
sacks were found to be wanting, and had significantly greater negatives
during the manufacturing process versus plastic sacks, you backed off.
Post by Terry del Fuego
What I *have* been doing is arguing with your idiotic, hysterical
misrepresentations and exaggerations, which I see you are continuing
to engage in.
Hey, sometimes I do shit like that too. It can be fun.
No, you are not arguing, which is beyond you. You're just shooting off
your mouth whilst patting yourself on the back believing in your tiny
mind that you're a big hero. Let's stop misrepresenting your behavior.
Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Oh, my. A spelling flame!
Yes. It gives me a special little tingle when hysterical idiots
undercut their own bullshit. A *very* special little tingle.
If you admitted that to make me feel sorry for you, then you succeeded.
Kenny McCormack
2019-04-03 15:46:49 UTC
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In article <q82in7$14a$***@dont-email.me>, Adam H. Kerman <***@chinet.com> scribbled:
...
etc, etc, etc.
No, you are not arguing, which is beyond you. You're just shooting off
your mouth whilst patting yourself on the back believing in your tiny
mind that you're a big hero. Let's stop misrepresenting your behavior.
etc, etc, etc.
I think somebody (namely, you) forgot how to say:

I was wrong and I'm sorry.

Otherwise known as "not knowing when to stop digging".
--
"There are two things that are important in politics.
The first is money and I can't remember what the second one is."
- Mark Hanna -
t***@iwvisp.com
2019-04-03 21:07:00 UTC
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This guy sounds a lot like Terry Ellsworth 20 years ago.
Terry del Fuego
2019-04-04 01:20:48 UTC
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Post by t***@iwvisp.com
This guy sounds a lot like Terry Ellsworth 20 years ago.
On the bright side, it's kinda cool that a child has discovered old
technology like Usenet. Maybe it will become a fad like vinyl records.
Terry del Fuego
2019-04-03 19:35:05 UTC
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On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 15:15:51 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
You really enjoy hearing yourself talk. That's a whole lot of words and
several followups in which you finally admitted that you're just
shooting off your mouth and never had anything worthwhile to say.
Oh, my. You really are an extra-special kind of disingenuous.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's interesting, given that I found an article written about an
actual government study in which the environmental benefits of cloth
sacks were found to be wanting, and had significantly greater negatives
during the manufacturing process versus plastic sacks, you backed off.
Backed off from what? My assertion that FOR ME PERSONALLY, reusable
bags have been more convenience than curse?

As for the article, it was interesting, non-hysterical, balanced...and
is almost entirely irrelevant to my situation. I'll leave it up to
that big, impressive, studly, rational brain of yours to figure out
why that is.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
No, you are not arguing, which is beyond you. You're just shooting off
your mouth whilst patting yourself on the back believing in your tiny
mind that you're a big hero. Let's stop misrepresenting your behavior.
I would welcome having you quote what you "think" is back-patting.
From where I sit, my responses look pretty blatantly self-centered,
since I exclusively talk about how reusables work FOR ME and utterly
disregard any considerations of the big picture and/or anyone else's
needs or concerns. Show me exactly where I did anything at all other
than say that I personally found reusable bags more convenient. I'll
be right here waiting patiently.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-04-04 00:07:28 UTC
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Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's interesting, given that I found an article written about an
actual government study in which the environmental benefits of cloth
sacks were found to be wanting, and had significantly greater negatives
during the manufacturing process versus plastic sacks, you backed off.
Backed off from what? My assertion that FOR ME PERSONALLY, reusable
bags have been more convenience than curse?
Your assertion was that you, personally, were willing to do something if
your sister, personally, made you cloth reusable bags. I'm just not
going to stop laughing at you for missing the moral of your own story.
Post by Terry del Fuego
As for the article, it was interesting, non-hysterical, balanced...and
is almost entirely irrelevant to my situation.
It's irrelevant to anyone's situation who is using bags that were
already manufactured. The point is that enouraging widespread
manufacturing of such bags, claiming environmental benefit versus other
bags, is specious.
Post by Terry del Fuego
I'll leave it up to that big, impressive, studly, rational brain of
yours to figure out why that is.
Idiot: The reason it doesn't apply to you is that your sister already
made the bag for you.
Post by Terry del Fuego
I would welcome having you quote what you "think" is back-patting.
Clearly you knew exactly which quote it was, given that you went to the
trouble to excise it to make yourself look better.
Post by Terry del Fuego
. . .
Terry del Fuego
2019-04-04 01:19:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 00:07:28 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Your assertion was that you, personally, were willing to do something if
your sister, personally, made you cloth reusable bags.
What I wrote on April 1, 2019:

"As for bags, the first thing I noticed when I started with cloth ones
years ago is that I need fewer of them because they hold more without
self-destructing. As far as I'm concerned, it immediately became more
convenience than curse."

"It helps that my sister is good with a sewing machine and has made
some nice ones that occasionally get compliments from cashiers."

Please explain how anything in the above expresses the conditional
willingness you allege rather than simple appreciation and/or
gratitude at how things worked out for me. (Again, for *me*. I speak
for no one else and, you'll note, have not in any way even *attempted*
to rebut anyone else's sincerely made points or recounting of personal
experiences, only your hysterical, misdirected and disingenuous
bullshit.)

In hindsight, if I could attain greater precision by revising one
thing I initially wrote, I would change "years ago" to "decades ago".
If you force me to guess when I first started using cloth bags, I'd
say 1992. Could be slightly earlier, could be slightly later. It
definitely pre-dates any mandate by many years because, again, I
immediately found it *convenient*.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
I'm just not going to stop laughing at you for missing the moral of
your own story.
Sure. Of course. Absolutely. *I* missed the point. Yeah, that's it.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's irrelevant to anyone's situation who is using bags that were
already manufactured.
Bingo.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The point is that enouraging widespread manufacturing of such bags,
claiming environmental benefit versus other bags, is specious.
That may well be true. Hmm...I wonder...is that possibly why I
described the article as "interesting, non-hysterical [and] balanced"?
For that matter, have I ever, in any post in this thread, addressed in
any way whatsoever whether I am helping or hurting the environment or
indeed having any environmental effect at all? Again, read the above:
Reusable bags have proven *convenient* for *me*. I make no claims to
superiority or world-saving or anything at all other than an ability
to appreciate what I personally, trivially find *convenient*.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Terry del Fuego
I would welcome having you quote what you "think" is back-patting.
Clearly you knew exactly which quote it was, given that you went to the
trouble to excise it to make yourself look better.
In other words, as I knew full well, you can't. And I have excised
absolutely nothing. Cool rebuttal tactic, though: "I totally know you
said it but you magically...uhhh...excised it!"
Adam H. Kerman
2019-04-04 03:00:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Your assertion was that you, personally, were willing to do something if
your sister, personally, made you cloth reusable bags.
"As for bags, the first thing I noticed when I started with cloth ones
years ago is that I need fewer of them because they hold more without
self-destructing. As far as I'm concerned, it immediately became more
convenience than curse."
I think it's great that you found it convenient.
Post by Terry del Fuego
"It helps that my sister is good with a sewing machine and has made
some nice ones that occasionally get compliments from cashiers."
I think it's great that your sister is willing to do this work for you
to make things convenient in your life.
Post by Terry del Fuego
Please explain how anything in the above expresses the conditional
willingness you allege rather than simple appreciation and/or
gratitude at how things worked out for me. (Again, for *me*.
. . .
I got exactly what you wanted me to out of your remarks.
Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by Adam H. Kerman
It's irrelevant to anyone's situation who is using bags that were
already manufactured.
Bingo.
Not bingo. It's a long-standing legitimate environmental point, that if
the continuing use of something that exists is benign, that it makes
more sense to re-use it if it can be maintained and repaired, than to
replace it with something newly manufactured.
Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by Adam H. Kerman
. . .
Post by Terry del Fuego
I would welcome having you quote what you "think" is back-patting.
Clearly you knew exactly which quote it was, given that you went to the
trouble to excise it to make yourself look better.
In other words, as I knew full well, you can't. And I have excised
absolutely nothing. Cool rebuttal tactic, though: "I totally know you
said it but you magically...uhhh...excised it!"
Nonsense. I typically intersperce my remarks in followup. Therefore, I
already quoted it when I wrote that remark in followup. In your
followup, you chose to cut it, then deny that you had done it. Excising
a quote necessary to retain context is a conscious act, dude.
Terry del Fuego
2019-04-04 12:34:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 03:00:32 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
I think it's great that you found it convenient.
Thank you for finally grasping and admitting that this was literally
my only and entire point all along. If you keep progressing like this,
you may well make it to sixth grade after all!

But for now, bye.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-04-04 14:47:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by Adam H. Kerman
I think it's great that you found it convenient.
Thank you for finally grasping and admitting that this was literally
my only and entire point all along.
I did no such thing.
Post by Terry del Fuego
If you keep progressing like this, you may well make it to sixth grade
after all!
But for now, bye.
Did you get your certificate for ability to inadequately simulate a
debate and pretending to be able to argue through selective quoting?
David Carson
2019-04-01 22:07:38 UTC
Reply
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On Mon, 01 Apr 2019 06:12:32 -0700, Terry del Fuego
Post by Terry del Fuego
As for bags, the first thing I noticed when I started with cloth ones
years ago is that I need fewer of them because they hold more without
self-destructing. As far as I'm concerned, it immediately became more
convenience than curse.
By the same token, laws that criminalize marijuana usage aren't any
inconvenience to me personally, so I don't have an opinion on whether they
are a legitimate function of government or whether they are good public
policy.
Terry del Fuego
2019-04-02 12:39:51 UTC
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Post by David Carson
By the same token, laws that criminalize marijuana usage aren't any
inconvenience to me personally, so I don't have an opinion on whether they
are a legitimate function of government or whether they are good public
policy.
Nice try.
J.D. Baldwin
2019-04-05 23:50:02 UTC
Reply
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Post by Terry del Fuego
As for bags, the first thing I noticed when I started with cloth ones
years ago is that I need fewer of them because they hold more without
self-destructing. As far as I'm concerned, it immediately became more
convenience than curse.
And you are unable to make use of these cloth bags without the state
sending its jack-booted thugs after you for failure to do so?

Here in my newly adopted city, the mayor crows in the latest city
newsletter that "the next step" is to ban reusable plastic bags as
well. I am amazed that I have to explain to you of all people that
the power elite don't give any more of a crap about "saving the
environment" than I give about the contents of Amy Schumer's shoe
closet. They exist to play power games for their own gratification.
The fact that most of them and their friends are rich assholes who pay
to have their groceries delivered and are thus unaffected by this
idiocy is icing on the proverbial cake.

I don't mind using a reusable bag. I have before this idiotic law was
enacted and I would had it never been. But I don't carry these bags
with me everywhere. I often stop at the store on the way home from
work -- because a convenient and cheap way to transport my goods from
the store to my home was easily available to me. Now I have to walk
an extra 1.5 miles if I want to go home, get my stupid bag, then go
back to the store. Easier just to drive to the next city over. Of
course, when the state enacts this moronitude, that will make life
just that much harder. Which, of course, is the whole point.

Oh, did I not mention that driving on the main public roadway
immediately in front of my apartment is like driving on the lunar-
goddamned-surface? It's had more shitty patch jobs than Michael
Jackson's nose, and it hasn't been graded and repaved since about
2004. Thank God my city government has its priorities in order.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone objects to any statement I make, I am
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it.-T. Lehrer
***~~~~----------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry del Fuego
2019-04-06 19:43:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 23:50:02 +0000 (UTC),
Post by J.D. Baldwin
And you are unable to make use of these cloth bags without the state
sending its jack-booted thugs after you for failure to do so?
I guess you missed all the other posts.

But I'll say again that I don't have a strong, fact-based opinion
about this one way or the other. In light of everything else this
country gleefully gets wrong, it simply barely registers with me at
all, no doubt in part because, selfishly, I simply don't personally
feel any pain from it nor know anyone else who does. "Oh, crap, I
forgot a bag" bothers me less than getting sprinkled on in the parking
lot.

Even if I genuinely believed it was flat-out wrong (and maybe I
*would* if I gave enough of a shit to spend enough time thinking about
it), it's pretty far back in a line of wrongness that stretches from
here to Jupiter. Though I have to admit that the time the cops shot
Kathryn Johnston after planting plastic bags in her apartment still
disturbs me.

And yes, I still retain enough self-awareness to realize that I may
have just spewed out the most over the top, pretentious and utterly
self-centered version of "Two wrongs make a right" anyone ever
excreted.

On the other hand, if it could be shown that everyone who died on 9/11
had a hand in mandating the deposit I have to pay for every damned
bottle that I have already been in the habit of carefully recycling
since at least 1979, I'd say that 9/11 was on balance a good thing.

Also, I have never--not even once--exaggerated anything in my entire
"life" simply for my own self-amusement, especially not in a manner
that any functional adult might reasonably think of as being in
horrifically bad taste.
David Carson
2019-04-07 00:15:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 06 Apr 2019 12:43:42 -0700, Terry del Fuego
Post by Terry del Fuego
Also, I have never--not even once--exaggerated anything in my entire
"life" simply for my own self-amusement, especially not in a manner
that any functional adult might reasonably think of as being in
horrifically bad taste.
It's just that you don't usually do it to put a positive spin on using the
powers of the government to micromanage the mundane, daily activities of
everyone for specious reasons.
Terry del Fuego
2019-04-07 02:50:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Carson
It's just that you don't usually do it to put a positive spin on using the
powers of the government to micromanage the mundane, daily activities of
everyone for specious reasons.
I don't think I'm putting an especially positive spin on it. I think
you may be confused by the fact that I'm normally so gleefully
negative that mere *apathy* registers as a beautiful bouquet of
smiling awesomeness.

Put another way, it's seemed to me for my entire life that one of the
primary functions of "our" various governments has been to
intentionally kill their own citizens for the sheer glee of it.
Compared to "We just started another recreational war" or "We're
forbidding the one thing that prevents you from choking to death on
your own vomit" or "We've decided to poison your water" or "We framed
you so we could shoot you", "Bring your own bag or pay a whole dime"
barely registers. That's not to say that I can't genuinely see how
that could be interpreted as attempting to claim that multiple wrongs
make a right...I just don't care.

And yes, I'm wholly aware of the irony of alleging apathy while
posting more of my ranting gibberish in this newsgroup over the past
few days than probably the past five years combined. A dishonest idiot
pulled my strings and rather than reach for the scissors I thought I'd
see if I could still dance.

This post could use a few more tortured, overblown metaphors, but I've
got a "Deadwood" DVD waiting to be watched.

David Carson
2019-03-30 21:13:08 UTC
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Because awareness efforts have worked so well to limit everything else that’s killing us and the planet!
The plastic bag ban has been in effect in CA for 2 or 3 years with no complaints. Even a lot of the right wingers supported it. All the stores now sell heavier reusable plastic backs for a dime each. Now I have a plastic bag full of better plastic bags. Also, for dog and cat people, all the Dollar type Stores sell poop bags, 50 for a dollar.
So putting shoppers' groceries in plastic bags that they can repurpose for
pet use is illegal, but selling the bags in bulk isn't. Brilliant.
c***@gmail.com
2019-03-30 22:06:05 UTC
Reply
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Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Because awareness efforts have worked so well to limit everything else that’s killing us and the planet!
The plastic bag ban has been in effect in CA for 2 or 3 years with no complaints. Even a lot of the right wingers supported it. All the stores now sell heavier reusable plastic backs for a dime each. Now I have a plastic bag full of better plastic bags. Also, for dog and cat people, all the Dollar type Stores sell poop bags, 50 for a dollar.
Ray Arthur
Where I live you have to buy grocery bags (paper or plastic) or use reusable grocery bags and that law has been in effect for going on five years and there are just as many plastic bags littering the streets than before this law was passed and went into effect. Additionally there is more paper, cardboard or plastic packaging trash because people buy items in the store and are forgoing buying a bag and instead of putting trash in the bag and carry the bag to trash can the slobs just drop the packaging of what they have purchased where they have opened it thus making the problem of random litter worse instead of better. As for me in the past used plastic garbage bags to curb my pets as well as small trash can liners so now I have to purchase plastic bags for both of those tasks. I have two dogs and commonly dog sit a third so that is 4 to 6 bags a day for my dogs and 4 bags a day for small trash cans in my home a day or a total of 10 bags or 3650 bags a year plus other bags used for whatever in total I use about 4,000 4 gallon trash bags a year or $500 a year for 4 gallon trash bags that before were more or less free before this feel good legislation for use around the house plus the bags I have to pay a nickel for plus tax when I don't have my cloth bags or all the grocery that purchased that trip to the store do not fit in my 20 cloth bags I own 10 of which cost me $50 a piece for and they are nice and wearing like iron that means I have invested well over $1000 in cloth grocery bags by the time you consider my current cloth bag inventory and the bags that I have had to replace to I have to keep replacing 2 or 3 bags every year and I have to wash or dry clean my cloth bags at least once a year. While the cost of washing is negligible the expensive reusable grocery bags need to dry cleaned because they have split leather bottoms and handles reinforcements and that $8 a bag at the dry cleaners I go to so that is another $80 or more dollars a year all toll in the past 5 years I have roughly spent $4000 Dollars because some idiot that has more money than they know what to do with has been conned this is good for the environment. What is good for the environment is not littering and to do that you need trash bags be they paper or plastic. I am not saying that some things can be used less or even done away with but this sudden cry about plastic straws and bags in the US and Europe is by in large a scam because instead of worrying about plastic drinking straws the "tree-hugger's" should be worrying about the plastic security rings on soda bottle caps because there are far more of them loose and floating in the ocean or causing harm to seam mammals than drinking straws bit drinking straws are a easy target and plastic bottle caps and there security ring are not. The same is true of the plastic windows in envelopes or how about plastic tampon applicators or tampons themselves because they are major problem along with sanitary napkins in waste water treatment plants if flushed down the toilet instead of disposed of in the trash but to single out feminine hygiene products would be considered sexists. Now the kick in the WhoHa is as much as the "tree hugger's" beat their chests about all the thing we must do it is not going to amount to diddle-squat if the island nations of the world don't quite dumping there trash in the worlds oceans. The number of animals that are truly negatively impacted by plastic trash improper disposed of by the USA is a quite small compared to pacific island paradises and don't forget the Philippines just temporarily close the popular tourist island of Boracay because environmental impact caused by man which was mostly because of improper waste management specifically human excrement that floating in the surf. What does turds in the surf have to do with plastic in a marine animal just think about if they were pumping sewage in the ocean what else were/are they dumping in the ocean. My point is the plastic is not the real evil it is how we humans use it.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-30 15:27:28 UTC
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Post by That Derek
Yes, I am all for reducing landfill waste and making this planet more
habitable for marine life.
Hold it.

If waste ends up in landfills, that's BENEFICIAL to the environment.
That means it's been properly disposed of, assuming that the landfill is
properly designed so it doesn't contaminate groundwater and that hazardous
chemicals aren't disposed of improperly in the municipal waste stream.

Given that plastic is relatively lightweight, it's probably more
environmentally friendly to include it with general municipal waste,
versus diverting it for recycling. China has been rejecting plastic
garbage for recycling that's not finly sorted and relatively clean. So
it likely to end up in a landfill with the rest of municipal waste
regardless, and that consumes more fuel if unrecyclable plastic stops at
the recycling location first before being sent to the landfill.
Post by That Derek
However, no governmental body -- state, local, or federal -- should be
in the business of regulating something mundane like shopping bags and
drinking straws.
You're right. Laws should require proper disposal of waste, and leave it
at that.
Post by That Derek
Awareness efforts should be ramped up to discourage us Terrans from
excessive plastic bag usage. However, removing a personal choice dynamic
and vilifying non-compliers is definitely not the answer.
Well, it shouldn't be a personal choice to leave one's garbage on the
ground to get blown away.
Michael OConnor
2019-03-30 16:28:54 UTC
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I've been saving my plastic bags for most of the past 25 years, and came up with a clever way of recycling them. I have three bean bag chairs in my spare room that are stuffed with nothing but plastic grocery bags. Because I move a lot, plastic bags are very handy for wrapping glasses and other fragile items for shipping, much better than newspapers because you don't get ink all over everything. When I need to move, I just unzip the bean bag chairs, pull out the plastic bags, and I have all the packing material I need, and after I am done moving, I repack the bags into the chairs. When I'm staying in one place, I still use plastic grocery bags for scooping leavings from the litter boxes into. If I have extra company over, they have places to sit.

I remember a story within the last year or so which mentioned that reusable food bags, cloth or plastic, were making a number of people sick from food borne illness due to bacteria getting in the bags from meat and the bacteria fester in there, and most people don't ever think of cleaning the bags. They just put the bags up once they get home and pull them out the next time they need them; they never wash them in soap and water to clean the bags.
That Derek
2019-03-31 06:26:54 UTC
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Submitted for your approval via a YouTube video is a 1970s episode of a Canadian quasi-educational, horror-themed TV kiddie show titled "The Hilarious House of Frightenstein," narrated by a quick-paycheck amenable Vincent Price.



Roughly at the 0:44:55 point, there's a segment featuring Physics Professor Julius Sumner Miller, who comes across as a hybrid between Don "Mr. Wizard" Herbert and monologuist Brother Theodore (with some crazy Professor Irwin Corey-styled hair thrown in).

In this segment, Prof. Miller demonstrates a trick in which he uses an ordinary drinking straw to penetrate the harder-surfaced skin of a potato. He accomplishes this by tightly cinching the straw near its middle which creates some dort of air pocket phenomenon which allows the straw to be thrust through the tuber.

If "they" take away our drinking straws, how will be able to impart this trick unto future generations?

"Gory, gory Transylvania,
The werewolves and bats'll always maim ya ..."
RH Draney
2019-03-31 07:07:18 UTC
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Post by That Derek
Submitted for your approval via a YouTube video is a 1970s episode of a Canadian quasi-educational, horror-themed TV kiddie show titled "The Hilarious House of Frightenstein," narrated by a quick-paycheck amenable Vincent Price.
http://youtu.be/poW0OJGT9C4
Roughly at the 0:44:55 point, there's a segment featuring Physics Professor Julius Sumner Miller, who comes across as a hybrid between Don "Mr. Wizard" Herbert and monologuist Brother Theodore (with some crazy Professor Irwin Corey-styled hair thrown in).
In this segment, Prof. Miller demonstrates a trick in which he uses an ordinary drinking straw to penetrate the harder-surfaced skin of a potato. He accomplishes this by tightly cinching the straw near its middle which creates some dort of air pocket phenomenon which allows the straw to be thrust through the tuber.
If "they" take away our drinking straws, how will be able to impart this trick unto future generations?
I had breakfast at a diner about a week ago that offered me a straw, but
took great pains to point out that it was made from avocado pits, so if
I had any allergy to avocado pits, I should avoid using it....

Okay, I get why you might think you have to make drinking straws out of
some other substance, but what on earth would even make you *think* of
trying avocado pits?...r
Terry del Fuego
2019-04-01 18:27:19 UTC
Reply
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Post by RH Draney
Okay, I get why you might think you have to make drinking straws out of
some other substance, but what on earth would even make you *think* of
trying avocado pits?...r
<https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/biodegradable-straws-from-avocado-seeds/>
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