Discussion:
Leni Riefenstahl, German filmmaker
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James Neibaur
2003-09-09 11:23:12 UTC
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The controversial filmmaker has died at the age of 101.

JN
J.D. Baldwin
2003-09-09 13:05:12 UTC
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Post by James Neibaur
The controversial filmmaker has died at the age of 101.
Wow. About time.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cpl. O'Reilly
2003-09-09 13:24:30 UTC
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Riefenstahl, whose health had been weakened by injuries sustained in
accidents, died in her sleep at home Monday night, her companion, Horst
Kettner told the on-line service for the German personality magazine Bunte.
``Her heart simply stopped,'' Kettner said.
She had one?
doc
2003-09-09 17:44:02 UTC
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On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:24:30 -0400, "Cpl. O'Reilly"
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Riefenstahl, whose health had been weakened by injuries sustained in
accidents, died in her sleep at home Monday night, her companion, Horst
Kettner told the on-line service for the German personality magazine Bunte.
``Her heart simply stopped,'' Kettner said.
She had one?
Oh Christ, you can be obtuse.
Cpl. O'Reilly
2003-09-09 23:38:46 UTC
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Post by doc
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:24:30 -0400, "Cpl. O'Reilly"
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Riefenstahl, whose health had been weakened by injuries sustained in
accidents, died in her sleep at home Monday night, her companion, Horst
Kettner told the on-line service for the German personality magazine Bunte.
``Her heart simply stopped,'' Kettner said.
She had one?
Oh Christ, you can be obtuse.
And, Christ aside, you can be a real schmuck. Watching you fall all
over yourself feeling sorry for worthless bastards like Riefenstahl is
part of the art around here.
Rob Petrie
2003-09-10 00:41:25 UTC
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x-no-archive: yes
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Post by doc
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:24:30 -0400, "Cpl. O'Reilly"
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Riefenstahl, whose health had been weakened by injuries sustained in
accidents, died in her sleep at home Monday night, her companion, Horst
Kettner told the on-line service for the German personality magazine Bunte.
``Her heart simply stopped,'' Kettner said.
She had one?
Oh Christ, you can be obtuse.
And, Christ aside, you can be a real schmuck. Watching you fall all
over yourself feeling sorry for worthless bastards like Riefenstahl is
part of the art around here.
If it wasn't for Leni Riefenstahl, how would the world know what
happened in Germany in 1934 to explain what came later?
Food for thought!
James Hall
2003-09-10 19:04:45 UTC
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Post by Rob Petrie
x-no-archive: yes
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Post by doc
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:24:30 -0400, "Cpl. O'Reilly"
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Riefenstahl, whose health had been weakened by injuries sustained in
accidents, died in her sleep at home Monday night, her companion,
Horst
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Post by doc
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Kettner told the on-line service for the German personality
magazine
Post by Rob Petrie
Bunte.
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Post by doc
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
``Her heart simply stopped,'' Kettner said.
She had one?
Oh Christ, you can be obtuse.
And, Christ aside, you can be a real schmuck. Watching you fall all
over yourself feeling sorry for worthless bastards like Riefenstahl is
part of the art around here.
If it wasn't for Leni Riefenstahl, how would the world know what
happened in Germany in 1934 to explain what came later?
Food for thought!
Louis Epstein
2003-09-09 14:11:32 UTC
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Hyfler/Rosner <***@rcn.com> wrote:

: "James Neibaur" <***@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
: news:BB832380.14FD3%***@wi.rr.com...
:> The controversial filmmaker has died at the age of 101.
:
: September 9, 2003
: Leni Riefenstahl, Controversial Filmmaker, Dies at 101
: By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


: Filed at 7:37 a.m. ET

: BERLIN (AP) -- Leni Riefenstahl, whose hypnotic depiction of Hitler's
: Nuremberg rally, ``Triumph of the Will,'' was renowned and despised as the
: best propaganda film ever made, has died, a German magazine reported
: Tuesday, quoting a long-time friend. She was 101.

101 years old and most remembered for something she did at 32.

I wonder what the record is for years spent living something down?

But for the madness of Pontius,she would have been my 20th Death Game
hit of 2003.

(Her death knocks the guy who took the lead in the Atwater pool
when Warren Zevon died back to 5th).

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
James Hall
2003-09-09 15:02:58 UTC
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"Louis Epstein" ...
Post by Louis Epstein
...
101 years old and most remembered for something she did at 32.
I wonder what the record is for years spent living something down?
....
Oh my where to begin ?

For fun - your current pack of fascists running your nation into
oblivion minus the art form displayed by a 32 year old.

Her film "TatN" is so superior to that other piece of crap with
the same caps "TatN' and the "Trial" film had so much potential.

In fact her "TatN' film is still one of the major pieces in any
"propaganda" course as well as most "cinema" courses.

Not bad eh louis especially when comapred to your
contributions to humankind.

The film "TatM" holds so many distinctions that listing them
would only inflame your dislike based on your prejudices that
smell up this forum but one of the more prominent distinctions
is that this film, her film {and considering the assholes she
was working for her being able to keep "control" of the film's
content speaks volumes of her not only as a filmmaker but
also as a strong willed, clever and driven person - art is
important yada, yada, gaga}was able to sieze both ends of
the spectrum - total disdain and total acceptance.

Maybe it is time that you, olde louis, begin to accept that
which is, in all matters rather than separating matters based
upon prejudice and bias.

For you to judge the current executive branch of your nation
as anything other than fascist while shitting on a filmmaker's
piece of work about fascism illustrates just how much so
many americaaaaaans are out of touch with the world, with
community, with themselves.

Your attitude provides a glaring example of arrogance,
self-deception, self-aggrandization, smugness and a fuck
you if you ain't one of us.

Fuck you and the nation you reside in. Long live Iraq and
you given that you only make wagers that are so much in
your favour and offer unimaginable returns may I suggest
that you drag your sorry ass down to your local bookie
and bet on the u.s. of a[sses] taking another total, world
view shit-kicking in the Middle East {short-term or long-
term}. All for fucking O I L & G A S reserves.

How long will it take americaaaa to live down The Viet
Nam War ?

I'm betting longer than "TatN". In fact I'm betting
FORFUCKINGEVER.

americaaa is such a poor winner and a disgusting loser.

JHall.
Chief Wild Eagle
2003-09-10 22:39:09 UTC
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On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:11:32 -0500, Louis Epstein
<***@PUF.FCC.NET> wrote:

And what the fuck have you done in the world, motherfucker.

The woman was a genius
Post by Louis Epstein
: BERLIN (AP) -- Leni Riefenstahl, whose hypnotic depiction of Hitler's
: Nuremberg rally, ``Triumph of the Will,'' was renowned and despised as the
: best propaganda film ever made, has died, a German magazine reported
: Tuesday, quoting a long-time friend. She was 101.
101 years old and most remembered for something she did at 32.
I wonder what the record is for years spent living something down?
But for the madness of Pontius,she would have been my 20th Death Game
hit of 2003.
(Her death knocks the guy who took the lead in the Atwater pool
when Warren Zevon died back to 5th).
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
The Kentucky Wizard
2003-09-10 23:37:32 UTC
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Upon receiving news that Chief Wild Eagle had made the remarks below, and
after consultations with my Joint Chiefs of Staff, being briefed by members
of my Cabinet and telephone conversations with various world leaders, I have
Post by Chief Wild Eagle
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:11:32 -0500, Louis Epstein
And what the fuck have you done in the world, motherfucker.
Hey, hey, HEY! No language like that Mr. Indian! At least until you get know
the person you're attacking a little better first.
--
© The Wiz ®
«€»¥«€»¥«€»
Chief Wild Eagle
2003-09-10 23:40:42 UTC
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Ok, I'll be rational :)

She was a world acclaimed filmmaker and photographer.

Made her last film at 100



On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:37:32 GMT, "The Kentucky Wizard"
Post by The Kentucky Wizard
Upon receiving news that Chief Wild Eagle had made the remarks below, and
after consultations with my Joint Chiefs of Staff, being briefed by members
of my Cabinet and telephone conversations with various world leaders, I have
Post by Chief Wild Eagle
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:11:32 -0500, Louis Epstein
And what the fuck have you done in the world, motherfucker.
Hey, hey, HEY! No language like that Mr. Indian! At least until you get know
the person you're attacking a little better first.
The Kentucky Wizard
2003-09-10 23:52:13 UTC
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Permalink
Upon receiving news that Chief Wild Eagle had made the remarks below, and
after consultations with my Joint Chiefs of Staff, being briefed by members
of my Cabinet and telephone conversations with various world leaders, I have
Post by Chief Wild Eagle
Ok, I'll be rational :)
She was a world acclaimed filmmaker and photographer.
Made her last film at 100
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:37:32 GMT, "The Kentucky Wizard"
Post by The Kentucky Wizard
Upon receiving news that Chief Wild Eagle had made the remarks below, and
after consultations with my Joint Chiefs of Staff, being briefed by members
of my Cabinet and telephone conversations with various world leaders, I have
Post by Chief Wild Eagle
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:11:32 -0500, Louis Epstein
And what the fuck have you done in the world, motherfucker.
Hey, hey, HEY! No language like that Mr. Indian! At least until you get know
the person you're attacking a little better first.
Now that's better, keep up the good work.
--
© The Wiz ®
«€»¥«€»¥«€»
Rob Petrie
2003-09-11 08:51:52 UTC
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x-no-archive: yes
Post by The Kentucky Wizard
Chief Wild Eagle
Post by Chief Wild Eagle
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:11:32 -0500, Louis Epstein
And what the fuck have you done in the world, motherfucker.
Hey, hey, HEY! No language like that Mr. Indian! At least until you get know
the person you're attacking a little better first.
Would you like an arrow in your belly?
"Woo Woo Woo Woo!"
--Chief Wild Eagle (sounds more like Curly to me)
David Langlois --- Ball serves Baal
2003-09-09 15:21:01 UTC
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....And the self-righteous line up to pile on.
J.D. Baldwin
2003-09-09 15:33:02 UTC
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In the previous article, David Langlois --- Ball serves Baal
Post by David Langlois --- Ball serves Baal
....And the self-righteous line up to pile on.
You don't have to be "self-righteous" to denounce Reifenstahl. She
did, after all, contribute in a big way to one of the great evils of
the last century. There are mitigating factors, sure -- she never
joined the party, she never promoted anti-Semitism directly, she
risked her own life and freedom to protest German atrocities in
Poland, etc. -- but what she did can't be undone.

Personally, I think that, on the spectrum between hanging at Landsberg
and total rehabilitation, she pretty well got what she deserved. Her
career as a propagandist and a filmmaker was destroyed, and I guess
it's a fitting punishment for someone like her to be endowed with
genius and then not permitted to use it.

And, what a strange, strange woman.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Flaminio
2003-09-09 17:14:53 UTC
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Post by J.D. Baldwin
Personally, I think that, on the spectrum between hanging at Landsberg
and total rehabilitation, she pretty well got what she deserved. Her
career as a propagandist and a filmmaker was destroyed, and I guess
it's a fitting punishment for someone like her to be endowed with
genius and then not permitted to use it.
Yep. Brilliant filmmaker, but she chose poorly on her subject matter. If
she had fled to the US like many of her countrymen of the time, we'd be
talking Oscar memorium lock right now. Living out the rest of her life
in relative obscurity is indeed a fitting punishment.
--
Bob
Rob Petrie
2003-09-09 17:20:11 UTC
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x-no-archive: yes
Post by J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, David Langlois --- Ball serves Baal
Post by David Langlois --- Ball serves Baal
....And the self-righteous line up to pile on.
You don't have to be "self-righteous" to denounce Reifenstahl. She
did, after all, contribute in a big way to one of the great evils of
the last century. There are mitigating factors, sure -- she never
joined the party, she never promoted anti-Semitism directly, she
risked her own life and freedom to protest German atrocities in
Poland, etc. -- but what she did can't be undone.
What exactly did she DO, besides record what happened in 1934, 6 full
years before FDR even had that glimmer in his eye to help out his socialist
buddy, Stalin?
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Personally, I think that, on the spectrum between hanging at Landsberg
and total rehabilitation, she pretty well got what she deserved. Her
career as a propagandist and a filmmaker was destroyed, and I guess
it's a fitting punishment for someone like her to be endowed with
genius and then not permitted to use it.
And, what a strange, strange woman.
FDR was just as strange to ally with the worst mass murderer of all
time, and a lot more powerful than L.R. ever was to impose his collectivist
views on the U.S., and successfully scheme to make it appear Japan attacked
first so he could appear to be an avenging angel and hero for generations
after.
James Hall
2003-09-09 19:50:50 UTC
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"J.D. Baldwin" ...
Post by J.D. Baldwin
...
the last century. There are mitigating factors, sure -- she never
joined the party, she never promoted anti-Semitism directly, she
risked her own life and freedom to protest German atrocities in
Poland, etc. -- but what she did can't be undone.
...
So one would think, if one is intelligent, that while it is really cool to
debate the merits and ills of Leni R. circa 1934 - 1947, it is really
time for many, many americaaaans & Americans to get their heads
out of their assholes and stop the imperialist fascist march taking
place TO FUCKING DAY.

Or as JD so succinctly pointed out "but what she did can't be
undone". Remove the she and replace it with americaaaa's
executive branch and what have we got ?

A fucking mess, toFUCKINGday, not 70 years past.

JHall.
doc
2003-09-10 18:46:24 UTC
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In the previous article, Don Mackie
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Personally, I think that, on the spectrum between hanging at
Landsberg and total rehabilitation, she pretty well got what she
deserved.
Where does von Braun fit on that spectrum? Lucky?
Definitely that. What to do with von Braun and his colleagues is one
of those thorny moral problems that makes me glad I wasn't around to
have the responsibility for deciding the matter.
Jesus, the arrogance of anyone who has the effrontery to superimpose
21st-Century politically-correct ethics upon the culture of 1945
Europe!

Were it not for those German V-2 scientists, mankind would not have
entered the Space Age.

Of course, then we would all be trapped into listening to the banal
and prosaic arguments of armchairs computer jocks who presume that
their alcohol-induced delusions of justice are platonic ideals.

Oh, I guess we wouldn't be listening (or at least reading) such
pronouncements, since there wouldn't be any PCs...sorry.
doc
2003-09-10 21:32:25 UTC
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On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:01:14 -0400, "Cpl. O'Reilly"
Post by doc
Jesus, the arrogance of anyone who has the effrontery to superimpose
21st-Century politically-correct ethics upon the culture of 1945
Europe!
In a single month, 12,000 Polish and Russian slave laborers died at von
Braun's Peenemunde rocket factories. I think that's a bad thing, but
maybe that's just my pesky 21st-century politicially-correct attitude
getting in the way. I'm not as carefree about mass murder as you are,
I guess.
Oh, you may have the moral high ground from your ivory tower, but
let's hope your high moral tone is never tested by conditions similar
to those which existed in the aftermath of the German surrender.

Werner von Braun was certainly no saint (although the good people of
Huntsville, Alabama would beg to differ), but the world would have
been a different place (and probably not for the better) had he been
strung up in Nuremberg or sent to rot in Spandau.

Redemption is possible; otherwise, we've all of us got it coming!
Rob Petrie
2003-09-09 16:33:25 UTC
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x-no-archive: yes
Post by David Langlois --- Ball serves Baal
....And the self-righteous line up to pile on.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Right on, David!
It's strange how people can be fixated by hate for one ancient woman who
happened to be a film maker. They never seem to think of a few other
names
of that era, like Willi Messerschmitt, Heinkel, Focke-Wulf, the Feiseler
company (which made those delightful buzz bombs, Luger, Mauser,
Schmeisser,
and the company which profited from the sales of Zyklon B.....and a
hundred
other German firms producing ball bearings, battleships and barbed wire,
etc.
Who were and what happened to all those above guys???
It's also ironic that Leni's brilliant films did her in. If she had made
mediocre newsreels, they'd have been forgotten in two weeks, but because
of
the quality of her work, she's remembered even 70 years later.
What a terrific point made!
Let's put it another way: if L.R.'s work had never been made, would it
have changed anything for the better that happened in Germany between
1933-1945?
Documentaries *can* be used for propaganda by the regime in power, but
they also can be used to enlighten future generations, and L.R.'s brilliant
work captured that time in film for all of future history to study and ask,
'WHY?'.
BTW, the U.S. had its own pack of film propaganda documentary artists
that were just as brilliant as L.R., during and for years after the war, but
nobody questions them as propaganda use by the U.S. Government, esp. when it
authorized the first man to make his documentary:

"Why We Fight" created and directed by Frank Capra (won an Oscar)

"Victory At Sea" by Henry Salomon (1954)


Hollywood has been producing propaganda films for WAR and esp. about
WW2 since 1941 and nobody questions them. The best WW2 propaganda (regular)
movie was no doubt,

"They Were Expendable" (1945), with John Wayne


Propaganda films aren't unique just in the 1933-45 Germany era.
Films and documentaries as the above provide inspiration for another
generation of young men and women to blindly march off to war.
Hero worship for the men and women of WW2 helped cause a later
generation to go to their deaths in Vietnam.
An armed neutrality (ex., Switzerland) would have been the best policy
for the U.S. Government in both WW1 and in WW2, etc.
They were both typical Old World and European wars until the USG
stepped in and made them World Wars. WW1 was lengthened and caused the rise
of Hitler's Germany precisely because the USG entered the war in 1917 when
both sides were almost ready to quit the bloody war and seek a balanced
peace.
Instead, the entry of the USG into WW1 caused the balance of power to
shift to the Allies and they subsequently enforced a brutal reparations
policy against Germany that led to the awful hyperinflation (1920-1923) the
people suffered.
That's where HItler's rise and the Nazi party came in.
Perhaps it's God's little jest.
Perhaps it's also God's way to give future generations pause before
believing in a powerful central government, but so far in the U.S. it has
failed miserably.
J.D. Baldwin
2003-09-09 16:45:45 UTC
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Let's put it another way: if L.R.'s work had never been made,
would it have changed anything for the better that happened in
Germany between 1933-1945?
"Triumph des Willens" and the "Olympia" films were *huge* steps toward
legitimizing the Nazi regime in the eyes of a whole lot of Europeans.
It's not too much of a stretch to believe that maybe the resistance
movements in other European countries might have been a little larger,
or at a little less risk of betrayal, if Nazi sentiments hadn't been
so widespread, and that maybe they *wouldn't* have been quite so
widespread without Reifenstahl's considerable talents in the service
of the cause.

And, anyway, does it matter? Would the final course of the Cold War
have been materially affected if Alger Hiss had never sold secrets to
the USSR? Does that mean we should have shrugged off his espionage?
BTW, the U.S. had its own pack of film propaganda documentary
artists that were just as brilliant as L.R., during and for years
after the war, but nobody questions them as propaganda use by the
U.S. Government, esp. when it authorized the first man to make his
"Why We Fight" created and directed by Frank Capra (won an Oscar)
"Victory At Sea" by Henry Salomon (1954)
I always think of those pictures as "wartime propaganda." It's not
necessarily an unmitigatedly bad thing. Hell, "Why We Fight" even
told a couple of lies about the Nazis. (How sad is that -- your case
against a bunch of *Nazis* is so weak you have to lie about them?)
But it's not remotely in the same league as helping guys like Goering
and Eichmann consolidate their grip on power -- not to mention helping
to spread their ideology through Europe.
Hollywood has been producing propaganda films for WAR and
esp. about WW2 since 1941 and nobody questions them. The best WW2
propaganda (regular) movie was no doubt,
"They Were Expendable" (1945), with John Wayne
That is probably my favorite WW II military movie. It was my second
favorite military movie of any kind (after "Paths of Glory") before
"Full Metal Jacket" came out.
Hero worship for the men and women of WW2 helped cause a later
generation to go to their deaths in Vietnam.
Probably true.
An armed neutrality (ex., Switzerland) would have been the
best policy for the U.S. Government in both WW1 and in WW2, etc.
I can't agree about WW II, but yeah, we had no reason to enter WW I.
That was probably the mistake that shaped the whole lousy century.
That, and not telling the damned French to piss off at Versailles. We
should have made them and the Germans pay *us* reparations.
WW1 was lengthened and caused the rise of Hitler's Germany precisely
because the USG entered the war in 1917 when both sides were almost
ready to quit the bloody war and seek a balanced peace.
Not only Hitler's Germany ... don't forget Lenin's Russia.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Petrie
2003-09-09 18:07:25 UTC
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Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Let's put it another way: if L.R.'s work had never been made,
would it have changed anything for the better that happened in
Germany between 1933-1945?
"Triumph des Willens" and the "Olympia" films were *huge* steps toward
legitimizing the Nazi regime in the eyes of a whole lot of Europeans.
Don't make me laugh! Socialism and Fascism were legitimized by
Mussolini in 1922, 11 long years before the National Socialists (i.e.,
Nazi's) ever came to power, but I don't hear you complain about Italy.
Matter of fact, socialism and fascism were nothing new to the Old World
which had had both ideologies for thousands of years, which is why so many
people fled the Old World for the New World in America.
Post by J.D. Baldwin
It's not too much of a stretch to believe that maybe the resistance
movements in other European countries might have been a little larger,
or at a little less risk of betrayal, if Nazi sentiments hadn't been
so widespread, and that maybe they *wouldn't* have been quite so
widespread without Reifenstahl's considerable talents in the service
of the cause.
Rationalizing will get you nowhere. These collectivist movements were
alive and well in Europe long before 1934.
Post by J.D. Baldwin
And, anyway, does it matter? Would the final course of the Cold War
have been materially affected if Alger Hiss had never sold secrets to
the USSR? Does that mean we should have shrugged off his espionage?
Hiss did something evil. When was the last time you heard of somebody
accused of doing evil by making a movie?
L.R. had nothing on Hollywood if you want to compare!
Post by J.D. Baldwin
BTW, the U.S. had its own pack of film propaganda documentary
artists that were just as brilliant as L.R., during and for years
after the war, but nobody questions them as propaganda use by the
U.S. Government, esp. when it authorized the first man to make his
"Why We Fight" created and directed by Frank Capra (won an Oscar)
"Victory At Sea" by Henry Salomon (1954)
I always think of those pictures as "wartime propaganda."
"Victory At Sea" was made 9 years after the war, so why was *it* made?
Post by J.D. Baldwin
It's not
necessarily an unmitigatedly bad thing. Hell, "Why We Fight" even
told a couple of lies about the Nazis. (How sad is that -- your case
against a bunch of *Nazis* is so weak you have to lie about them?)
Hey, it did the job it was intended to do!
Post by J.D. Baldwin
But it's not remotely in the same league as helping guys like Goering
and Eichmann consolidate their grip on power -- not to mention helping
to spread their ideology through Europe.
Garbage! Fascism/socialism/collectivism was the rage in Europe (and
still is) for thousands of years before Germany was even made a nation in
1871.
Germany was a bunch of tribes until 1871, so you think their
subsequent evils 62+ years later was something new? ROTFL!
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Hollywood has been producing propaganda films for WAR and
esp. about WW2 since 1941 and nobody questions them. The best WW2
propaganda (regular) movie was no doubt,
"They Were Expendable" (1945), with John Wayne
That is probably my favorite WW II military movie.
See! It did the job it was designed to do--repeat the idea of WW2 as a
'good' war so future generations would have no objections to marching off to
their deaths in another war--or two, or three,...


It was my second
Post by J.D. Baldwin
favorite military movie of any kind (after "Paths of Glory") before
"Full Metal Jacket" came out.
Hero worship for the men and women of WW2 helped cause a later
generation to go to their deaths in Vietnam.
Probably true.
So what is all the worship about WW2 when the facts are that Germany
and Russia would have beat each other up on the Eastern Front (where most of
the action and deaths were for WW2) and the U.S. and the rest of Europe
could have sat back and enjoyed the two dictators kill each other?
Post by J.D. Baldwin
An armed neutrality (ex., Switzerland) would have been the
best policy for the U.S. Government in both WW1 and in WW2, etc.
I can't agree about WW II, but yeah, we had no reason to enter WW I.
Of course you can't agree with me about WW2 because you have been
propagandized to death for 58 years now about how wonderful that war was for
the U.S. to get involved with and allied with the most evil man (and regime)
who ever lived on Earth! [Stalin, Russia]
Post by J.D. Baldwin
That was probably the mistake that shaped the whole lousy century.
That, and not telling the damned French to piss off at Versailles. We
should have made them and the Germans pay *us* reparations.
No, the reparations imposed on Germany led precisely to Hitler and the
Nazis. WW2 was merely an extension of WW1 with a 20-yr. intermission.
Post by J.D. Baldwin
WW1 was lengthened and caused the rise of Hitler's Germany precisely
because the USG entered the war in 1917 when both sides were almost
ready to quit the bloody war and seek a balanced peace.
Not only Hitler's Germany ... don't forget Lenin's Russia.
And other governments-nations that were created from the ashes of
WW1--Israel (nee, Palestine), Iraq (previously part of Turkey's Ottoman
Empire), leading directly to the present WAR. One of the largest empires of
all, the British Empire owned what is now Iraq after WW1 until Iraq's
independence with a king in 1932.

A striking example of Jefferson's comment that Europeans were "nations
of eternal war" and why the U.S. should always steer clear of making
political alliances with them, while at the same time foster goodwill by
trading freely with them.

---

"I have deemed it fundamental for the United States never to take active
part in the quarrels of Europe. Their political interests are entirely
distinct from ours. Their mutual jealousies, their balance of power, their
complicated alliances, their forms and principles of government, are all
foreign to us. They are nations of eternal war."
--Thomas Jefferson, 1823

"Peace, freedom, and honest friendship with all nations--entangling
alliances with none."
--Thomas Jefferson, Inaugural Address, Wed. Mar. 4, 1801
Terry del Fuego
2003-09-09 19:19:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rob Petrie
When was the last time you heard of somebody
accused of doing evil by making a movie?
It happens every time some useless womb-turd gets hurt or killed
imitating something it saw in a movie.
Terrymelin
2003-09-09 20:26:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rob Petrie
Hiss did something evil. When was the last time you heard of somebody
accused of doing evil by making a movie?
If you seriously believe that all Leni Riefenstahl did was "make a movie" then
your grasp of history is seriously deficient.

Terry Ellsworth
Mack Twamley
2003-09-10 00:19:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Rob Petrie
Hiss did something evil. When was the last time you heard of somebody
accused of doing evil by making a movie?
If you seriously believe that all Leni Riefenstahl did was "make a movie" then
your grasp of history is seriously deficient.
Terry Ellsworth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Okay, Terry, how about telling us all exactly what Leni DID do besides make
a movie? Oh, Yeah, she edited Olympiad too, if that's different from
'making' it. But if you want to paint her as evil, nasty, bad, horrific,
etc. and make us believe that she and she alone promoted WWII, you've got a
lot of persuading to do. She never joined the nazi party, always
maintained that she was apolitical, which I happen to believe, and that she
didn't know what was going on at Belsen and Dachau. I believe that too,
since most Germans didn't know either.
I met a German girl about 40 years ago who came from a small town in
Bavaria. I asked her if she was aware of what the Nazis were doing, and she
replied that the townspeople realized that the Jewish citizens were
disappearing ...usually overnight....and a couple of people asked the
authorities (SS) where they had gone. The reply to the question was "If
you're so interested in where the Jews went, we can show you, by taking you
along next time we pick up some Jews." Their curiosity faded quickly.
Do you think that if Leni was privy to this information about the death
camps, she should have made yet another movie exposing all this to the
world? She wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes.
Mack Twamley
2003-09-10 17:24:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack Twamley
I believe that too,
since most Germans didn't know either.
After 60 years if there is anyone who still believes this kind of
nonsense
then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.
This crap has been demolished in countless books and detailed research
since
the end of WW2.
As the judge asks in "Judgment in Nuremburg" .... "where did you think all
the
Jews who were disappearing were going?"
Terry Ellsworth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Are you getting your historical insights from movies now?

I believe that there weren't many more Germans that knew of the death camps
than there were Americans who knew about The Manhattan Project before August
6, 1945.

Would you care to cite some legitimate sources that declare that the
majority of the German population knew all about Ilse Koch and her
lampshades and other little tidbits before the end of WWII?
James Hall
2003-09-10 19:04:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rob Petrie
x-no-archive: yes
Post by PirateJohn
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Rob Petrie
Hiss did something evil. When was the last time you heard of somebody
accused of doing evil by making a movie?
If you seriously believe that all Leni Riefenstahl did was "make a
movie"
Post by PirateJohn
then
Post by Terrymelin
your grasp of history is seriously deficient.
Terry Ellsworth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Okay, Terry, how about telling us all exactly what Leni DID do besides
make
Post by PirateJohn
a movie? Oh, Yeah, she edited Olympiad too, if that's different from
'making' it. But if you want to paint her as evil, nasty, bad, horrific,
etc. and make us believe that she and she alone promoted WWII, you've
got
Post by Rob Petrie
a
Post by PirateJohn
lot of persuading to do. She never joined the nazi party, always
maintained that she was apolitical, which I happen to believe, and that
she
Post by PirateJohn
didn't know what was going on at Belsen and Dachau. I believe that too,
since most Germans didn't know either.
The Germans knew.
Post by PirateJohn
I met a German girl about 40 years ago who came from a small town in
Bavaria. I asked her if she was aware of what the Nazis were doing, and
she
Post by PirateJohn
replied that the townspeople realized that the Jewish citizens were
disappearing ...usually overnight....and a couple of people asked the
authorities (SS) where they had gone. The reply to the question was "If
you're so interested in where the Jews went, we can show you, by taking
you
Post by PirateJohn
along next time we pick up some Jews." Their curiosity faded quickly.
Proving the common Germans knew about the death camps.
Post by PirateJohn
Do you think that if Leni was privy to this information about the death
camps, she should have made yet another movie exposing all this to the
world? She wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes.
Obviously, true for the outside world, but the Germans knew. They
were
Post by Rob Petrie
no fools to not understand what happened to their Jewish friends when they
disappeared one day and never came back.
A friend of mine recently showed me a book that documents the
ordinary
Post by Rob Petrie
Germans knew what was happening to the Jews: and to the gypsies,
homosexuals, the aged, the sick, Slavs, Serbs, Czechs, Italians, Poles,
Ukranians, anybody the Nazi's thought were against them. Many German
civilians themselves took part in the massacre. It wasn't done only by
the
Post by Rob Petrie
S.S. or other officials in Germany's government.
The body count is NOT 6 million for only Hitler and Germany.
Fascism was popular all over Europe, not just in Germany.
Do whatever is necessary. Which is no real philosophy at all.
Germany had plenty of help from its fascist allies: Romanians,
Hungarians, Austrians, French, Croatians, and others also murdered
millions.
Post by Rob Petrie
Tortured them first, too.
Total dead: 20.9 million.
Source on number: R.J. Rummel, "Death By Government" (1994)
Terrymelin
2003-09-09 20:27:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rob Petrie
BTW, the U.S. had its own pack of film propaganda documentary
artists that were just as brilliant as L.R., during and for years
after the war, but nobody questions them as propaganda use by the
U.S. Government, esp. when it authorized the first man to make
That's called moral equivalence. Something that most rational people do not
accept. Are you seriously suggesting that the Nazi propaganda machine and the
propaganda put out by the US Government during WW2 are morally equivalent?

Terry Ellsworth
Rob Petrie
2003-09-10 01:42:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Rob Petrie
BTW, the U.S. had its own pack of film propaganda documentary
artists that were just as brilliant as L.R., during and for years
after the war, but nobody questions them as propaganda use by the
U.S. Government, esp. when it authorized the first man to make
That's called moral equivalence. Something that most rational people do not
accept. Are you seriously suggesting that the Nazi propaganda machine and the
propaganda put out by the US Government during WW2 are morally equivalent?
Propaganda is propaganda, no matter who emits it.
Intentional bias is exactly what propaganda means.
To slant the viewers' opinion toward one conclusion and intentionally
discarding other facts that disfavor your conclusion.

Prop a gan da - 1. "Any widespread scheme or effort to spread or
promote an idea, opinion, or course of action in order to help or do damage
to a cause, person, etc."
2. "The ideas, opinions, etc., so spread or promoted; now often
used disparagingly because of the deceitful or distorted character of much
propaganda."

Did you ever hear of the Moral Equivalence of War? [MEOW]
J.D. Baldwin
2003-09-09 21:58:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I thought it was pretty much accepted that Hiss was just another
victim of the House Un-American Activies Committee. E.g., from
[...]
Disbarred, Hiss took a job as a salesman and wrote "In the Court
of Public Opinion," in which he rebutted the government's case
point by point.
And then along came the VENONA cables and made his lies even more
obvious.

I guess he thought it would be 1,000 years before the Soviet reich
fell.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
James Hall
2003-09-09 19:57:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Langlois --- Ball serves Baal
....And the self-righteous line up to pile on.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Right on, David!
It's strange how people can be fixated by hate for one ancient woman who
happened to be a film maker. They never seem to think of a few other
names
of that era, like Willi Messerschmitt, Heinkel, Focke-Wulf, the Feiseler
company (which made those delightful buzz bombs, Luger, Mauser,
Schmeisser,
and the company which profited from the sales of Zyklon B.....and a
hundred
other German firms producing ball bearings, battleships and barbed wire,
etc.
It's also ironic that Leni's brilliant films did her in. If she had made
mediocre newsreels, they'd have been forgotten in two weeks, but because
of
the quality of her work, she's remembered even 70 years later. Perhaps
it's God's little jest.
And the heavens and the angels sing "Did Preston Bush FINANCE any of her
films circa 1930 - 1941 ?"

Oh me Oh my such a deli lamma, eh ?

JHall.
Brigid Nelson
2003-09-09 16:22:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Louis Epstein
September 9, 2003
Leni Riefenstahl, Controversial Filmmaker, Dies at 101
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
She said she hoped she would be remembered by people as ``an industrious
woman who has worked very hard her whole life and has received much
acknowledgment.''
I think this is fair. If she had been born
somewhere else she would have found a different
subject and made amazing movies about it. Her
misfortune in being born in her time and place was
Hitler's boon, not her own. Perhaps she really
was all about the pretty pictures.

Not an apologist,
brigid
J.D. Baldwin
2003-09-09 16:51:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Brigid Nelson
I think this is fair. If she had been born
somewhere else she would have found a different
subject and made amazing movies about it. Her
misfortune in being born in her time and place was
Hitler's boon, not her own. Perhaps she really
was all about the pretty pictures.
Yeah, and if Stalin had been born in Sandusky, Ohio, he might have
been a city councilman remembered fondly for expanding a bunch of the
local parks. I ain't buying.

Riefenstahl was unfortunate enough to have lived at a time when she
had to choose between resisting, or abetting, evil. She chose the
latter course. Yes, the full picture is very complex, and there are
many mitigating factors in her favor. And, yes, most of the people
who criticize her most vociferously would probably have gone right
along with Nazism, too -- most people did, after all. But that
doesn't change the fact of what she did, and who she did it for.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Terrymelin
2003-09-09 17:22:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Riefenstahl was unfortunate enough to have lived at a time when she
had to choose between resisting, or abetting, evil. She chose the
latter course. Yes, the full picture is very complex, and there are
many mitigating factors in her favor. And, yes, most of the people
who criticize her most vociferously would probably have gone right
along with Nazism, too -- most people did, after all. But that
doesn't change the fact of what she did, and who she did it for.
I'm sure she and Diane Mosley are enjoying a little "hot" toddy right now where
it is very, very hot.

They both made the same choice and were forced to suffer for it. Good riddance.

Terry Ellsworth
Mack Twamley
2003-09-10 00:26:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Terrymelin
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Riefenstahl was unfortunate enough to have lived at a time when she
had to choose between resisting, or abetting, evil. She chose the
latter course. Yes, the full picture is very complex, and there are
many mitigating factors in her favor. And, yes, most of the people
who criticize her most vociferously would probably have gone right
along with Nazism, too -- most people did, after all. But that
doesn't change the fact of what she did, and who she did it for.
I'm sure she and Diane Mosley are enjoying a little "hot" toddy right now where
it is very, very hot.
They both made the same choice and were forced to suffer for it. Good riddance.
Terry Ellsworth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Does this mean you don't consider her a lock for the In Memoriam segment of
the Oscarcast next year? : - )
Terrymelin
2003-09-10 13:21:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack Twamley
Does this mean you don't consider her a lock for the In Memoriam segment of
the Oscarcast next year? : - )
Now, that's an interesting question. As for being a great filmmaker she should
be included but I doubt the Academy has the balls to do it.

They can always claim -- which is true -- "that she wasn't a member of the
Academy" and get around it that way.

Terry Ellsworth
Mack Twamley
2003-09-10 17:07:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Mack Twamley
Does this mean you don't consider her a lock for the In Memoriam segment of
the Oscarcast next year? : - )
Now, that's an interesting question. As for being a great filmmaker she should
be included but I doubt the Academy has the balls to do it.
They can always claim -- which is true -- "that she wasn't a member of the
Academy" and get around it that way.
Terry Ellsworth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Balls is the criterion here, and after the flack they took by honoring Elia
Kazan (an academy member, I'd think) I doubt they'd have 'em.
Plus the fact that any film involving The Holocaust or Nazi hunters is
almost a shoe-in for honorable mention, and any sympathetic portrayal of
Nazis is automatically dissed, leads me to think that it will be a snowy day
in Hollywood when Leni gets any recognition.
I wonder if some wag might suggest a star for her on the Walk of Fame......
; - )
Rob Petrie
2003-09-11 15:37:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Mack Twamley
Does this mean you don't consider her a lock for the In Memoriam
segment
Post by J.D. Baldwin
of
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Mack Twamley
the Oscarcast next year? : - )
Now, that's an interesting question. As for being a great filmmaker she
should
Post by Terrymelin
be included but I doubt the Academy has the balls to do it.
They can always claim -- which is true -- "that she wasn't a member of the
Academy" and get around it that way.
Terry Ellsworth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Balls is the criterion here, and after the flack they took by honoring Elia
Kazan (an academy member, I'd think) I doubt they'd have 'em.
Plus the fact that any film involving The Holocaust or Nazi hunters is
almost a shoe-in
Shoo-fly, shoo!

for honorable mention, and any sympathetic portrayal of
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Nazis is automatically dissed, leads me to think that it will be a snowy day
in Hollywood when Leni gets any recognition.
I wonder if some wag might suggest a star for her on the Walk of Fame......
; - )
And any picture about the old U.S.S.R. (i.e., "Reds"), gets huzzahs,
cheers, and honors, although Stalin's reds killed at least TWICE as many
human beings (42.7 mil. to 20.9 mil.) as the Nazi's ever did--or could do.
But socialism (instead of fascism) in the U.S. has had this amazing
'hold' on the American people and its leaders since the late 1890s, although
it has failed everywhere it has been tried for the last 100 years.
PirateJohn
2003-09-11 17:48:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rob Petrie
But socialism (instead of fascism) in the U.S. has had this amazing
'hold' on the American people and its leaders since the late 1890s,
Oh, I dunno. You have fascists in the White House right now.


although
Post by Rob Petrie
it has failed everywhere it has been tried for the last 100 years.
Oh yeah. Major failings. Canada, all of Europe. Great Britain. The
Scandinavian countries. All of those places with intelligent people, excellent
standards of living, and available health care.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Keeper of the Humour List at http://members.aol.com/PirateJohn/pirate1.html

"Mother, mother ocean... I have heard your call" - Jimmy Buffett, A Pirate
Looks At Forty.
Paul Sauberer
2003-09-12 03:31:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Would you like to stand in line waiting for that 'available' health
care in Canada because demand overwhelms the supply?
Funny thing is, almost every time I meet someone from Canada I wind up
asking about the health system. I *never* hear the horror stories
from the people living under the system that I keep hearing from the
Americreeps who claim to know.
The worst thing I've heard was also the most recent: In Ontario the
health budget is being cut and the guy I was talking to was worried
that things _might_ get bad.
On the other hand, I've heard a lot of bitching about the British
system from people who've dealt with it.
It's probably because you are talking to relatively healthy people. They
don't notice the shortcomings because they don't need the acute care, which
is where the problem is.

Most people do not have problems because acute, catastrophic health care is
not needed by most people. So, since the system is controlled by
politicians, they seek to make sure that most people are kept satisfied. If
a relative few have real problems when they need the catastrophic care, it's
no big deal because it won't cost many votes.

Paul Sauberer
doc
2003-09-09 17:46:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Post by Brigid Nelson
I think this is fair. If she had been born
somewhere else she would have found a different
subject and made amazing movies about it. Her
misfortune in being born in her time and place was
Hitler's boon, not her own. Perhaps she really
was all about the pretty pictures.
Yeah, and if Stalin had been born in Sandusky, Ohio, he might have
been a city councilman remembered fondly for expanding a bunch of the
local parks. I ain't buying.
Riefenstahl was unfortunate enough to have lived at a time when she
had to choose between resisting, or abetting, evil. She chose the
latter course. Yes, the full picture is very complex, and there are
many mitigating factors in her favor. And, yes, most of the people
who criticize her most vociferously would probably have gone right
along with Nazism, too -- most people did, after all. But that
doesn't change the fact of what she did, and who she did it for.
I hope Almighty God is a little more gracious and liberal when it
comes time for your reckoning, my righteous friend.
J.D. Baldwin
2003-09-10 13:16:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by doc
I hope Almighty God is a little more gracious and liberal when it
comes time for your reckoning, my righteous friend.
Hey, God: "Bring it on."
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
PirateJohn
2003-09-10 13:53:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Hey, God: "Bring it on."
Is that thunder that I hear in the background? ;)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Keeper of the Humour List at http://members.aol.com/PirateJohn/pirate1.html

"Mother, mother ocean... I have heard your call" - Jimmy Buffett, A Pirate
Looks At Forty.
PirateJohn
2003-09-09 20:56:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Riefenstahl was unfortunate enough to have lived at a time when she
had to choose between resisting, or abetting, evil. She chose the
latter course.
Funny. I see few here actively resisting Dubya, the Bushies, and the invasion
of Iraq. And the Iraqi invasion was genuinely one of the most evil and naked
power grabs of this century, to the detriment of the Iraqi people. Not to
mention being incredibly wasteful of the resources and lives of Americans.

You are living in the middle of history. And none of you 'freedom loving'
conservatives here is doing a thing about it.

So I'd cut Riefenstahl some slack. 'lest you want us to remember you with the
same broad brush that you remember Riefenstahl.

And I'm not really intending to flame JD. He stepped forward with the
predictable anti-Riefenstahl comment and just happened to be there. JD and I
don't agree about 80% of the time but I do think that he's more thoughtful than
the vast majority of folks with a rightwing mindset. And, yes, it is noted
that JD evidently also thinks that the invasion of Iraq wasn't a bright move.

OK, now back to your regular flames.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Keeper of the Humour List at http://members.aol.com/PirateJohn/pirate1.html

"Mother, mother ocean... I have heard your call" - Jimmy Buffett, A Pirate
Looks At Forty.
Bob Flaminio
2003-09-09 20:59:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by PirateJohn
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Riefenstahl was unfortunate enough to have lived at a time when she
had to choose between resisting, or abetting, evil. She chose the
latter course.
Funny. I see few here actively resisting Dubya, the Bushies, and the
invasion of Iraq.
What would you have me do? I didn't vote for the guy, and I won't vote
for him in '04. I don't support most of his policies. I've written to
him, my idiot Senators and my idiot Congressman about it -- best I got
was a form letter back from Barbara Boxer.

Please tell me -- WWPJD?
--
Bob
David Carson
2003-09-10 02:32:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Flaminio
Post by PirateJohn
Funny. I see few here actively resisting Dubya, the Bushies, and the
invasion of Iraq.
What would you have me do? I didn't vote for the guy, and I won't vote
for him in '04. I don't support most of his policies. I've written to
him, my idiot Senators and my idiot Congressman about it -- best I got
was a form letter back from Barbara Boxer.
Please tell me -- WWPJD?
To some people, posting smack on alt.obituaries counts as war resistance.
Rob Petrie
2003-09-09 22:35:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by PirateJohn
Post by J.D. Baldwin
Riefenstahl was unfortunate enough to have lived at a time when she
had to choose between resisting, or abetting, evil. She chose the
latter course.
Funny. I see few here actively resisting Dubya, the Bushies, and the invasion
of Iraq. And the Iraqi invasion was genuinely one of the most evil and naked
power grabs of this century, to the detriment of the Iraqi people. Not to
mention being incredibly wasteful of the resources and lives of Americans.
I've probably led this small pack since Day 1 who have resisted W., and
his cartel of corporate runamucks who eagerly want a piece of the action in
rebuilding Iraq; after the U.S. Military tore it down.
Post by PirateJohn
You are living in the middle of history. And none of you 'freedom loving'
conservatives here is doing a thing about it.
Thank goodness you didn't slam libertarians simply as 'conservatives who
smoke pot'!
Post by PirateJohn
So I'd cut Riefenstahl some slack. 'lest you want us to remember you with the
same broad brush that you remember Riefenstahl.
More often than I'd like, I find myself agreeing with the Left on
various issues, but then I also remember when the Left was strangely silent
on the Vietnam mess in LBJ's administration (1963-1969) until Nixon took
office!
Post by PirateJohn
And I'm not really intending to flame JD. He stepped forward with the
predictable anti-Riefenstahl comment and just happened to be there. JD and I
don't agree about 80% of the time but I do think that he's more thoughtful than
the vast majority of folks with a rightwing mindset. And, yes, it is noted
that JD evidently also thinks that the invasion of Iraq wasn't a bright move.
Bob F., I, and a handful of other libertarians on this ng have been
proven correct again and again, but the Left and Right keep blaming the
other side for partisan political purposes.
Face it, *both* Left and Right and Moderates are mostly
government-power lovers and neither sees LIBERTY as the highest order to be
attained with a concomitant rolling back of the Leviathan in D.C. to the
States and to the People as per the 9th and 10th Amendments in the Bill of
Rights.
Post by PirateJohn
OK, now back to your regular flames.
P.J., Are you with LIBERTY or against LIBERTY?
[paraphrasing W.'s famous line]
Rob Petrie
2003-09-09 16:54:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by James Neibaur
The controversial filmmaker has died at the age of 101.
JN
September 9, 2003
Leni Riefenstahl, Controversial Filmmaker, Dies at 101
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 7:37 a.m. ET
BERLIN (AP) -- Leni Riefenstahl, whose hypnotic depiction of Hitler's
Nuremberg rally, ``Triumph of the Will,'' was renowned and despised as the
best propaganda film ever made, has died, a German magazine reported
Tuesday, quoting a long-time friend. She was 101.
I'd also rank Frank Capra's "Why We Fight" side-by-side with "Triumph
of the Will" as the best propaganda film ever made.
"Triumph of the Will" didn't motivate a people to go to war, but "Why
We Fight" did, and it certainly wasn't balanced or fair in its historical
presentation.

Commenting on this quote further down,
Post by Louis Epstein
Nonetheless, as his filmmaker Riefenstahl was the only woman to help shape
the rise of the Third Reich.
A film documentarian doesn't shape what happens later, they record it
for history, and there obviously was no World War 2 in 1934 when "Triumph of
the Will" was made. Contrast that with "Why We Fight" made during the war,
or "Victory At Sea" (1954), or the hundreds of WW2 movies Hollywood made
glorifying USG entry into that European war.
The USG entered WW2 in Europe to help out FDR's socialist buddy,
Stalin--the worst mass murderer in all of human history. Both Stalin and
Hitler were no good and the USG had no business allying itself with either
mass murderer.
FDR only schemed and plotted to get into the war 'by the back door'
by inciting Japan to attack with his trade embargo policies blocking the
sale of oil and other products to that island nation.
Read: "Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor" by
Robert B. Stinnett (The Free Press, New York, NY, 2000), 386pp.
Five-page, 8-action Memo at Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) addressed
to 2 of FDR's most trusted advisors, pp. 6-23. by the head of the Far East
desk, Lt. Cmdr. Arthur McCollum, Oct. 7, 1940; on how to get Japan to attack
'first' by U.S. goading them via embargoes on oil, steel, on everything and
not telling Adm. Husband E. Kimmel and Lt. Gen. Walter C. Short about the
threat at Pearl Harbor with FDR also ordering the battleships to remain open
and lined up like the sitting ducks they were that fateful Sunday!
Memo found by Mr. Stinnett in Box 6 of a special US Navy collection in RG
38 in the Military Reference Branch of Archives II, Jan. 24, 1995. (pp.
261-267).
Post by Louis Epstein
Riefenstahl, whose health had been weakened by injuries sustained in
accidents, died in her sleep at home Monday night, her companion, Horst
Kettner told the on-line service for the German personality magazine
Bunte.
Post by Louis Epstein
``Her heart simply stopped,'' Kettner said.
A tireless innovator of film and photographic techniques, Riefenstahl's
career centered on a quest for adventure and for portraying physical
beauty.
Post by Louis Epstein
Even as she turned 100 last year she was strapping on scuba gear to
photograph sharks in turquoise waters, although she had begun to complain
that injuries sustained in accidents over the years, including a
helicopter
Post by Louis Epstein
crash in Sudan in 2000, had taken their toll and caused her constant pain.
Despite critical acclaim for her later photographs of the African Nuba
people and of undersea flora and fauna, she spent more than half her life
trying to live down the films she made for Hitler and for having admired
the
Post by Louis Epstein
tyrant who devastated Europe and all but eliminated its Jews.
Even as late as 2002, Riefenstahl was investigated for Holocaust denial
after she said she did not know that Gypsies taken from concentration
camps
Post by Louis Epstein
to be used as extras in one of her wartime films later died in the camps.
Authorities eventually dropped the case, saying her comments did not rise
to
Post by Louis Epstein
a prosecutable level.
Speaking to The Associated Press just before her 100th birthday on Aug.
22,
Post by Louis Epstein
2002, Riefenstahl dramatically said she has ``apologized for ever being
born'' but that she should not be criticized for her masterful films.
``I don't know what I should apologize for,'' she said. ``I cannot
apologize, for example, for having made the film ``Triumph of the
Will'' --
Post by Louis Epstein
it won the top prize. All my films won prizes.''
Biographer Juergen Trimborn, who wrote ``Riefenstahl: A German Career,''
said Riefenstahl could not apologize because the Nazi films were the
centerpieces of her career.
``One can't speak about Leni Riefenstahl without looking at her entire
career in the Third Reich,'' Trimborn said. ``Her most important films
were
Post by Louis Epstein
made during the Third Reich -- 'Triumph of the Will,' 'Olympia,' -- that's
what's she's known for.''
Riefenstahl said she had always been guided by the search for beauty,
whether it was found in her hypnotizing images of the 1934 Nuremberg
rallies
Post by Louis Epstein
with thousands of goose-stepping soldiers and enraptured civilians fawning
for their Fuehrer, in her dazzling portrayal of the 1936 Olympic athletes
in
Post by Louis Epstein
Berlin, or in her still photographs of the sculpted Nuba men.
``I always see more of the good and the beautiful than the ugly and
sick,''
Post by Louis Epstein
Riefenstahl said. ``Through my optimism I naturally prefer and capture the
beauty in life.''
Born Helene Bertha Amalie Riefenstahl in Berlin on Aug. 22, 1902, she was
the first child of Alfred Riefenstahl, the owner of a heating and
ventilation firm, and his wife, Bertha Scherlach.
Riefenstahl's artistic career began as a creative dancer until a knee
injury
Post by Louis Epstein
knee caused made her decide to shift her focus to movies.
After she saw one of Arnold Fanck's silent films set in the mountains,
Riefenstahl presented herself to him as his new star, and he accepted, as
much for her blue-eyed, high-cheekboned beauty as her daredevil spirit.
She rock climbed barefoot for the camera and was buried in an avalanche
for
Post by Louis Epstein
the death scene in the 1926 film ``Mountain of Destiny.'' Soon, she was
making her own films, fairy tales such as ``The Blue Light'' celebrating
Germany's Alpine mystique in which she was star, screenwriter and
director.
Post by Louis Epstein
She heard Hitler speak for the first time at a 1932 rally and wrote to
him -- again, offering her talents to a powerful, inspirational man. In
her
Post by Louis Epstein
memoirs, Riefenstahl rapturously describes her first impression of
Hitler's
Post by Louis Epstein
charisma.
``It seemed as if the earth's surface were spreading out in front of me,
like a hemisphere that suddenly splits apart in the middle, spewing out an
enormous jet of water, so powerful that it touched the sky and shook the
earth. I felt quite paralyzed.''
Although she said she knew nothing of Hitler's ``Final Solution'' and
learned of concentration camps only after the war, Riefenstahl also said
she
Post by Louis Epstein
openly confronted the Fuehrer about his anti-Semitism, one of many
apparent
Post by Louis Epstein
contradictions in her claims of total ignorance of the Nazi mission.
Likewise, she defended ``Triumph of the Will'' as a documentary that
contained ``not one single anti-Semitic word,'' while avoiding any talk
about filming Nazi official Julius Streicher haranguing the crowd about
``racial purity'' laws.
Many suspected Riefenstahl of being Hitler's lover, which she also denied.
Nonetheless, as his filmmaker Riefenstahl was the only woman to help shape
the rise of the Third Reich.
She made four films for Hitler, the best known of which were ``Triumph of
the Will'' and ``Olympia,'' a meditation on muscle and movement at the
1936
Post by Louis Epstein
Berlin Olympic games.
She married once, in 1944 to army Major Peter Jacob, but the couple split
three years later. She had no children, and her only sibling, Heinz, was
killed on the eastern front during World War II.
Riefenstahl spent three years under allied arrest after the war, some of
the
Post by Louis Epstein
time in a mental hospital. War tribunals ultimately cleared her of any
wrongdoing but suspicion of being a Nazi collaborator stuck. She was
boycotted as a film director and sank into poverty, living with her mother
in a one-room apartment.
She reclaimed her career in the 1960s when she lived with and photographed
the Nuba.
``I've never laughed so much as I did when living with the Nuba. I became
reconciled with myself,'' she said.
She next turned to underwater photography, diving in the Maldives, the
Indian Ocean, the Red Sea, and off Papua New Guinea.
Around this time she met Kettner, or ``Horsti,'' as she called him, a
fellow
Post by Louis Epstein
photographer half her age who became her live-in assistant and companion.
At age 100, she released a new film based on her dives, ``Impressions
Under
Post by Louis Epstein
Water.''
She said she hoped she would be remembered by people as ``an industrious
woman who has worked very hard her whole life and has received much
acknowledgment.''
Terrymelin
2003-09-09 17:23:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rob Petrie
"Triumph of the Will" didn't motivate a people to go to war, but "Why
We Fight" did, and it certainly wasn't balanced or fair in its historical
presentation.
"Why We Fight" certainly couldn't have "motivated" a people to go to war since
it was made long after we had gone to war.

Terry Ellsworth
Rob Petrie
2003-09-09 18:24:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Rob Petrie
"Triumph of the Will" didn't motivate a people to go to war, but "Why
We Fight" did, and it certainly wasn't balanced or fair in its historical
presentation.
"Why We Fight" certainly couldn't have "motivated" a people to go to war since
it was made long after we had gone to war.
No. It was commissioned and financed by the U.S. Government during the
War to Frank Capra, and was so popular it became the official USG
explanation of *both* World Wars. Made in 1943, 1944, and 1945 as a 7-part
series. [*]
You must be thinking of the post-war "Victory At Sea" tv series made in
1954.

[*]

"Prelude to War" (#1, 1943)
"The Nazis Strike" (#2, 1943)
"Divide and Conquer" (#3, 1943)
"The Battle of Britain" (#4, 1943)
"The Battle of Russia" (#5, 1943)
"The Battle of China" (#6, 1944)
"War Comes to America" (#7, 1945)
Terrymelin
2003-09-09 20:24:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rob Petrie
No. It was commissioned and financed by the U.S. Government during the
War to Frank Capra, and was so popular it became the official USG
explanation of *both* World Wars. Made in 1943, 1944, and 1945 as a 7-part
series. [*]
You must be thinking of the post-war "Victory At Sea" tv series made in
1954.
No, I'm not. You said that "Why We Fight" motivated people to go to war. I
pointed out that it was made after we had already gone to war. You said "no."

Do you know that we "went to war" in 1941? By which your numbers above prove my
very point?

Terry Ellsworth
Cpl. O'Reilly
2003-09-09 23:50:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Rob Petrie
No. It was commissioned and financed by the U.S. Government during the
War to Frank Capra, and was so popular it became the official USG
explanation of *both* World Wars. Made in 1943, 1944, and 1945 as a 7-part
series. [*]
You must be thinking of the post-war "Victory At Sea" tv series made in
1954.
No, I'm not. You said that "Why We Fight" motivated people to go to war. I
pointed out that it was made after we had already gone to war. You said "no."
Do you know that we "went to war" in 1941? By which your numbers above prove my
very point?
Terry Ellsworth
I've seen Why We Fight. If it was supposed to motivate people to go to
war or stay at war, I don't see how it could have. It's a bore, and I
don't know why it enjoys the reputation it does. Also, Capra made
some, but not all, of the films, and shared the (uncredited) work on
others. As for Why We Fight having been commissioned, that's a poor
word to use when Capra and everyone else connected with it were in the
Army and were making the films under orders.

Why We Fight had nothing at all to do with Victory at Sea, a
private-sector film series (except insofar as some of the same clips
wound up in both projects).
Rob Petrie
2003-09-10 00:59:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Rob Petrie
No. It was commissioned and financed by the U.S. Government during the
War to Frank Capra, and was so popular it became the official USG
explanation of *both* World Wars. Made in 1943, 1944, and 1945 as a 7-part
series. [*]
You must be thinking of the post-war "Victory At Sea" tv series made in
1954.
No, I'm not. You said that "Why We Fight" motivated people to go to war. I
pointed out that it was made after we had already gone to war. You said "no."
Do you know that we "went to war" in 1941? By which your numbers above
prove
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Post by Terrymelin
my
very point?
Terry Ellsworth
I've seen Why We Fight. If it was supposed to motivate people to go to
war or stay at war, I don't see how it could have.
That was its raison d'etre [reason for existence], so what else could
have it been for but propaganda and for morale boosting, and for future
generations to 'learn from'?
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
It's a bore,
Your personal opinion.
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
and I
don't know why it enjoys the reputation it does. Also, Capra made
some, but not all, of the films, and shared the (uncredited) work on
others. As for Why We Fight having been commissioned, that's a poor
word to use when Capra and everyone else connected with it were in the
Army and were making the films under orders.
So that only proves the Army and USG wanted to make sure people didn't
have low morale in the Army if they could propagandize for the war, not to
mention it was at gunpoint and with government taxes. Hardly an objectiive
source to mention
"Why We Fight" also used captured enemy motion pictures, to show both
sides used films as propaganda weapons.
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
Why We Fight had nothing at all to do with Victory at Sea, a
private-sector film series (except insofar as some of the same clips
wound up in both projects).
So was "They Were Expendable" (1945) a private-sector film, but it was
probably the best World War 2 propaganda movie ever made. Any male of draft
age who saw the film at the time and not have a strong desire to rush to his
nearest recruiting station to enlist would have had to have exceptional
self-control.
Terry del Fuego
2003-09-09 19:16:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rob Petrie
Stalin--the worst mass murderer in all of human history.
So far.
Rob Petrie
2003-09-10 00:09:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by Terry del Fuego
Post by Rob Petrie
Stalin--the worst mass murderer in all of human history.
So far.
Nobody even close to Stalin's Russia as the worst mass murderer of his
own civilians in the WW2 era:

Stalin: 42.7 million
Hitler: 20.9 million
Chiang Kai-Shek (China) 10.2 million
Tojo (Japan) 5.96 million


Allied total (Russia, China) 52.9 million
Axis total (Germany, Japan) 26.9 million

The Allies win again! America was on the wrong side!

Before the Soviet Socialists empire crumbled in 1991, they murdered a
conservative estimate of at least 61.9 million! So much for the
"compassion" and the "worker's paradise" of socialism.
Hitler's fascism was no match for the Soviet Socialists in numbers
murdered!

Source on dead numbers: R.J. Rummel, "Death By Government" (1994)
PirateJohn
2003-09-10 03:45:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rob Petrie
Stalin: 42.7 million
Hitler: 20.9 million
Chiang Kai-Shek (China) 10.2 million
Tojo (Japan) 5.96 million
No Mao? Someone's slipping.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Keeper of the Humour List at http://members.aol.com/PirateJohn/pirate1.html

"Mother, mother ocean... I have heard your call" - Jimmy Buffett, A Pirate
Looks At Forty.
Rob Petrie
2003-09-10 11:01:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes

"PirateJohn" <***@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message news:***@mb-m25.aol.com...

The header was the dead in the WW2 era.
Post by PirateJohn
Post by Rob Petrie
Stalin: 42.7 million
Hitler: 20.9 million
Chiang Kai-Shek (China) 10.2 million
Tojo (Japan) 5.96 million
No Mao? Someone's slipping.
No, because he came *after* the war, in 1949.
Mao and the Red Chinese were worse than Hitler, but not as bad as
Stalin: 35 million.
And that 42.7 mil. for Stalin was until March 1953, when he died.
The conservative total of the Soviet Socialists from 1917-1991 is *at
least* 61.9 million.
--R.J. Rummel, "Death By Government" (1994)

Some other credible estimates range to 85 million--or higher to 100
million!

Let's just conclude that the Soviet Socialists killed more people and
had the greatest killing machine than anybody else in the history of the
world.
Terrymelin
2003-09-09 20:29:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I thought it was pretty much accepted that Hiss was just another
victim of the House Un-American Activies Committee. E.g., from
Accepted only by those who are morons and who still defend people who betrayed
the US to Stalin. It has been conclusively proved time and again over the past
50 years that Alger Hiss was a Soviet spy. Try reading "Perjury."

Where have you been?

Terry Ellsworth
MadCow57
2003-09-10 01:38:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Terrymelin
Accepted only by those who are morons and who still defend people who betrayed
the US to Stalin. It has been conclusively proved time and again over the past
50 years that Alger Hiss was a Soviet spy. Try reading "Perjury."<< -- Terry
Ellworth

Also try reading "Treason."
Corby Gilmore
2003-09-10 01:36:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Neibaur
The controversial filmmaker has died at the age of 101.
JN
As controversial a figure as she might be, I see the Academy making the
politically correct choice here; in my opinion I do NOT see her making the
memoriam segment, although she possibly should based on the quality, not
necessarily the content, of her work.

--
Corby Gilmore
***@ncf.ca
Mack Twamley
2003-09-10 17:28:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Corby Gilmore
Post by James Neibaur
The controversial filmmaker has died at the age of 101.
JN
As controversial a figure as she might be, I see the Academy making the
politically correct choice here; in my opinion I do NOT see her making the
memoriam segment, although she possibly should based on the quality, not
necessarily the content, of her work.
--
Corby Gilmore
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Leni were included in the segment, it would make for such chaos among the
audience, that Michael Moore's speech last time would have seemed like a
garden party. No way she's gonna be included, although years ago they did
acknowledge Satyajit Ray, not an AMPAS member either.
Terrymelin
2003-09-10 20:34:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack Twamley
No way she's gonna be included, although years ago they did
acknowledge Satyajit Ray, not an AMPAS member either.
No, but he received an Academy Award ...

Terry Ellsworth
Jim Beaver
2003-09-10 21:52:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Mack Twamley
No way she's gonna be included, although years ago they did
acknowledge Satyajit Ray, not an AMPAS member either.
No, but he received an Academy Award ...
Which means he WAS an AMPAS member, in that all nominees are given AMPAS
membership. Not that membership is required for being included in the
Memoriam segment. It's not.

Jim Beaver
Terrymelin
2003-09-10 22:37:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jim Beaver
Not that membership is required for being included in the
Memoriam segment. It's not.
Jim Beaver
That's true but there were at two years I can remember if which the host said
"let's take a look at Academy members we lost in the past year." So they have
used that criteria at some point in the past.

Terry Ellsworth
Cpl. O'Reilly
2003-09-11 02:02:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jim Beaver
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Mack Twamley
No way she's gonna be included, although years ago they did
acknowledge Satyajit Ray, not an AMPAS member either.
No, but he received an Academy Award ...
Which means he WAS an AMPAS member, in that all nominees are given AMPAS
membership. Not that membership is required for being included in the
Memoriam segment. It's not.
Jim Beaver
I saw a Washington Post article that said many documentary winners (let
alone nominees) aren't even invited to join the Academy, much less
given membership. The documentarians thought it was because of their
politics (usually way to the left).
Terrymelin
2003-09-11 14:04:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cpl. O'Reilly
I saw a Washington Post article that said many documentary winners (let
alone nominees) aren't even invited to join the Academy, much less
given membership. The documentarians thought it was because of their
politics (usually way to the left).
Considering how "far to the left" the Academy is that seems highly unlikely.

Terry Ellsworth
PirateJohn
2003-09-10 03:41:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Flaminio
Please tell me -- WWPJD?
LOL!

Actooly Bob ... it sounds like you have the letter writing covered.

Basically that's the #1 thing right now. Voice your opposition in an
intelligent way.

And when the elections come around, vote early and vote often. I hear that's
what they are doing in Chicago ;)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Keeper of the Humour List at http://members.aol.com/PirateJohn/pirate1.html

"Mother, mother ocean... I have heard your call" - Jimmy Buffett, A Pirate
Looks At Forty.
Rob Petrie
2003-09-10 10:51:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by PirateJohn
Post by Bob Flaminio
Please tell me -- WWPJD?
LOL!
Actooly Bob ... it sounds like you have the letter writing covered.
Basically that's the #1 thing right now. Voice your opposition in an
intelligent way.
And when the elections come around, vote early and vote often. I hear that's
what they are doing in Chicago ;)
That's old news. They did it in the city of St. Louis in 2000, too!
Or was that about the dog that voted? <g>
Bob Flaminio
2003-09-10 17:08:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by PirateJohn
Post by Bob Flaminio
Please tell me -- WWPJD?
LOL!
Actooly Bob ... it sounds like you have the letter writing covered.
Basically that's the #1 thing right now. Voice your opposition in an
intelligent way.
And when the elections come around, vote early and vote often. I
hear that's what they are doing in Chicago ;)
Actually, that will be easy to do in California, now that our idiot
governor signed the bill allowing illegal aliens to get California
Driver's Licenses. If an illegal can get a CDL with essentially no
documentation, what's to stop me from getting two, three, or a hundred
of them? And then using each one to register to vote, and spending all
day election day driving around to polling places casting ballots.
--
Bob
MadCow57
2003-09-10 17:48:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
. . .spending all day election day driving around to polling places casting
ballots.<< -- Bob Flaminio

I threw another one of those multiple voters out of my polling place yesterday.
we get one or two every time, and they're fairly easy to spot.

l also ejected a Republican candidate who thought it was OK to bop in to say
"hi" to the polling place staff - in front of several voters, of course.

This guy was particularly dense. I said, "you're not supposed to be here, so
please leave." No comprehension. Then, "get the hell out of my polling
place." Nothing. Only "get the f**k out of here NOW" finally worked.

But I was left wondering who let this candidate out of the house on election
day dressed like a mafia enforcer - dead black suit, white shirt, black tie.
Geez, don't these people have campaign staffs with a little bit of sense?
Rob Petrie
2003-09-11 08:48:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by MadCow57
. . .spending all day election day driving around to polling places casting
ballots.<< -- Bob Flaminio
I threw another one of those multiple voters out of my polling place yesterday.
we get one or two every time, and they're fairly easy to spot.
MD (Baltimore?) had an election?
For what office--the last one who will turn out the lights?
Post by MadCow57
l also ejected a Republican candidate who thought it was OK to bop in to say
"hi" to the polling place staff - in front of several voters, of course.
Wasn't that nice of him to stop by and say 'hi'.
Post by MadCow57
This guy was particularly dense. I said, "you're not supposed to be here, so
please leave." No comprehension. Then, "get the hell out of my polling
place." Nothing. Only "get the f**k out of here NOW" finally worked.
But I was left wondering who let this candidate out of the house on election
day dressed like a mafia enforcer - dead black suit, white shirt, black tie.
Geez, don't these people have campaign staffs with a little bit of sense?
Rob Petrie
2003-09-11 08:41:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by Bob Flaminio
Post by PirateJohn
Post by Bob Flaminio
Please tell me -- WWPJD?
LOL!
Actooly Bob ... it sounds like you have the letter writing covered.
Basically that's the #1 thing right now. Voice your opposition in an
intelligent way.
And when the elections come around, vote early and vote often. I
hear that's what they are doing in Chicago ;)
Actually, that will be easy to do in California, now that our idiot
governor signed the bill allowing illegal aliens to get California
Driver's Licenses. If an illegal can get a CDL with essentially no
documentation, what's to stop me from getting two, three, or a hundred
of them? And then using each one to register to vote, and spending all
day election day driving around to polling places casting ballots.
Is that what you would do--wasting time voting?
I'd be getting new IDs, new SSN's, and make a fortune having numerous
aliases.
Rob Petrie
2003-09-11 08:44:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by Bob Flaminio
Actually, that will be easy to do in California, now that our idiot
governor signed the bill allowing illegal aliens to get California
Driver's Licenses. If an illegal can get a CDL with essentially no
documentation, what's to stop me from getting two, three, or a hundred
of them? And then using each one to register to vote, and spending all
day election day driving around to polling places casting ballots.
--
Bob
I have a question. Since it is the law that illegal aliens are to be
deported
why not just round them up when they show up at drivers license offices
and
get rid of them?
But how will California know which persons are illegal and which
persons are legal? Hire another 100,000 policemen (at what cost?) to
document and investigate each new CDL?
J.D. Baldwin
2003-09-10 04:28:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Neibaur
The controversial filmmaker has died at the age of 101.
"And some get to die in their sleep
At the age of a hundred and one."

<*sigh*>
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / ***@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Terrymelin
2003-09-10 13:13:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The USG wanted to make sure the people didn't lose their enthusiasm for
the war, therefore the movie(s) among hundreds of WW2 movies Hollywood made.
The 'good guys' vs. the 'bad guys'. Black and White. That's the
Hollywood ideal and an easy way to not investigate below the surface into
the real reasons for the War.
The cause of the Depression: The Crash of '29 and unregulated markets.
Solution: Big Government
Simple, isn't it!
Except the premise is faulty, therefore, so is the solution.
Cause of WW2 for America: Japan's government attacked Pearl Harbor.
Simple, isn't it!
Solution: War and Bigger Government, after people started questioning
FDR's New Deal. [Unemployment in 1939 (16.7%) was higher than it was in
1931 (16.3%). Stalin begged the USA to help them out on the Eastern Front
against Germany; therefore the desire for the USA to enter WW2]
Except the premise is faulty by incompleteness, therefore, so is the
solution.
The Eastern Front was 75% of the total military deaths in WW2 and a
great percentage of the civilian deaths in WW2; esp. at Stalingrad.
All the other battles were pygmies in size compared to Russa vs.
Germany. The 'winner' of those battles would be the winning side. Russia
'won' but at a huge cost of 18 million dead. Germany lost, and no small help
was the brutal Russian winter of 1941-1942 which starved-froze the enemy and
their tanks. Germany lost a total of 4.2 million dead. Poland lost 5.8
million dead. Japan: 1.97 million. China: 1.3 million. France: 563,000.
Italy: 395,000. Britain: 357,000. The USA: 292,000 in battle; plus
another 115,000 Other deaths for a total of 407,000.
Total Allied dead: 29,010,000
Total Axis dead: 7,661,000
Total WW2 dead: 36,671,000
Do you know that we "went to war" in 1941? By which your numbers above
prove my very point?
I guess the USG wasted more of the taxpayers' money for nothing!!!
I'm sure the USG (and the people, too) knew it was at war in 1943, 1944,
and 1945 [sarcasm], so what purpose did the films have *except* to impress
on the present and future generations what *it* wanted to be known as the
official reasons?
See MY point, Terry?
It was just pure propaganda as 'great' as anything L.R. or any other
filmaker ever did to give an official stamp of approval on the reasoning and
keeping enthusiasm and morale high for the war.
Yes, but that's not what you said in your original post. You implied that "Why
We Fight" was made BEFORE we got into the war and that it "motivated us to go."

That is simply not true as it was made more than 2-4 years AFTER we entered the
war.

Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
2003-09-10 17:29:34 UTC
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Definitely that. What to do with von Braun and his colleagues is one
of those thorny moral problems that makes me glad I wasn't around to
have the responsibility for deciding the matter.
--
Yes, and Mr. Kanon's fictional account of them in "The Good German" presents
the conflict with more shades of gray than one can imagine.

Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
2003-09-11 14:06:33 UTC
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Post by Terrymelin
Yes, but that's not what you said in your original post. You implied that
"Why
Post by Terrymelin
We Fight" was made BEFORE we got into the war and that it "motivated us to
go."
I did not imply any such thing! If you want to make up stuff, go join an
art class. Why would the USG (dumb as they are) commission a movie BEFORE
there was a fight to explain *why* when there was no 'why' to be told?
Yes, it is EXACTLY what you said Mr. Petrie. Maybe you want to take it back but
you said it "motivated" us to go to war -- the clear implication is that we
weren't at war at the time. It was made 2-4 years AFTER the war started.

What is so unclear about your own statements?

Terry Ellsworth
Rob Petrie
2003-09-11 16:03:51 UTC
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x-no-archive: yes
Post by Terrymelin
Post by Terrymelin
Yes, but that's not what you said in your original post. You implied that
"Why
Post by Terrymelin
We Fight" was made BEFORE we got into the war and that it "motivated us to
go."
I did not imply any such thing! If you want to make up stuff, go join an
art class. Why would the USG (dumb as they are) commission a movie BEFORE
there was a fight to explain *why* when there was no 'why' to be told?
Yes, it is EXACTLY what you said Mr. Petrie. Maybe you want to take it back but
you said it "motivated" us to go to war -- the clear implication is that we
weren't at war at the time. It was made 2-4 years AFTER the war started.
Or *KEEP BEING motivated* before the course of action is completed.
It doesn't necessarily imply only at the start, unless you want it to.

Motivated - "Something, as a need or desire, that impels or incites a
person to a certain course of action or behavior."
Post by Terrymelin
What is so unclear about your own statements?
Dictionary definition:

Motivated - "Something, as a need or desire, that impels or incites a
person to a certain course of action or behavior."

Where does it say 'only at the start' of said action and not also mean
'during the process' before said action is completed?
Topic Cop
2020-10-03 05:03:51 UTC
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Post by James Neibaur
The controversial filmmaker has died at the age of 101.
JN

Matthew Kruk
2020-10-03 05:18:38 UTC
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Post by Topic Cop
Post by James Neibaur
The controversial filmmaker has died at the age of 101.
JN
http://youtu.be/VYjHpC2u7ck
Great link. Thanks!

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