Discussion:
Margo Kidder cause of death: suicide by overdose
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David Carson
2018-08-09 01:40:07 UTC
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http://extratv.com/2018/08/08/superman-actress-margot-kidders-cause-of-death-released/
'Superman’ Actress Margot Kidder’s Cause of Death Released

Actress Margot Kidder, best known as Lois Lane in the “Superman” film
franchise, passed away in Montana in May. The Park County Coroner has
released her cause of death.

The AP obtained a copy of the report, and says Kidder, 69, died as the
“result of a self-inflicted drug and alcohol overdose.” It is unknown
which drugs she ingested.

Her daughter Maggie McGuane, 41, told the wire service that she already
knew that her mother, who had battled bipolar disorder during her
lifetime, had committed suicide.

“It’s a big relief that the truth is out there,” she said. “It’s important
to be open and honest so there’s not a cloud of shame in dealing with
this.”

Kidder was working until just prior to her death. Her film “Robber’s
Roost” was in pre-production, and the final film she worked on was 2017’s
“The Neighborhood.” Aside from playing Lois Lane, she also worked on
Broadway, including in "The Vagina Monologues," a show she toured with for
two years.

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d***@gmail.com
2018-08-09 03:20:12 UTC
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It sounds like an accidental overdose and not suicide to me.

Art Bell was drugged up too on scripts.
Adam H. Kerman
2018-08-11 22:56:11 UTC
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***@gmail.com wrote:

>It sounds like an accidental overdose and not suicide to me.

How does taking a combination of drugs and alchohol, known to have
adverse consequences when taken in combination, sound accidental to
you? Yes, I know the coroner still hasn't released the list of drugs
ingested.

If anything, it's the attitude that a ruling of suicide stigmatizes the
deceased as opposed to a reasonable ruling based on the facts that's the
problem. The more we try to avert our eyes to obvious suicides, demand
appeasement in coroner's verdicts of suicide to get them changed to
accidental, the worse it is for people who might be treated who are at
risk of suicide.

Your attitude that we can't discuss suicide when the death sure as hell
sounds like suicide does no one any favors.

>Art Bell was drugged up too on scripts.
David Carson
2018-08-12 15:09:49 UTC
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On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 22:56:11 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<***@chinet.com> wrote:

>***@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>It sounds like an accidental overdose and not suicide to me.
>
>How does taking a combination of drugs and alchohol, known to have
>adverse consequences when taken in combination, sound accidental to
>you?

People sometimes engage in self-destructive, reckless behavior without
making a deliberate decision to end their lives, but it ends up that way.
Perhaps they miscalculate the risk, or they've done similar things so many
times, they forget there is a risk, or deceive themselves into thinking it
doesn't apply to them. "I know what I'm doing." It happens a lot.

What I got from this article is that the coroner and the daughter are
saying that Kidder deliberately overdosed because she wanted to die. I
don't know why ***@gmail.com read the article differently - he
seems to be disagreeing with the coroner and the daughter for reasons that
are unstated - but I don't think the fact that she overdosed proves in and
of itself that it wasn't an accident.

To put it another way, a guy comes up to a railroad crossing. The train is
bearing down, the lights are flashing, the bells are blaring, and the
barriers are falling, but the guy tries to beat the train. If the train
hits him, unless he meant to get hit, it's still an accident.

David Carson
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Kenny McCormack
2018-08-12 17:13:10 UTC
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In article <pkpijs$blf$***@gioia.aioe.org>,
David Carson <***@neosoft.com> wrote:
...
>People sometimes engage in self-destructive, reckless behavior without
>making a deliberate decision to end their lives, but it ends up that way.
>Perhaps they miscalculate the risk, or they've done similar things so many
>times, they forget there is a risk, or deceive themselves into thinking it
>doesn't apply to them. "I know what I'm doing." It happens a lot.
>
>What I got from this article is that the coroner and the daughter are
>saying that Kidder deliberately overdosed because she wanted to die. I
>don't know why ***@gmail.com read the article differently - he
>seems to be disagreeing with the coroner and the daughter for reasons that
>are unstated - but I don't think the fact that she overdosed proves in and
>of itself that it wasn't an accident.

The operative question here is: Does it matter? (or: Who cares?)

Obviously, objectively, it doesn't matter. But as long as we live in a
regressive society where it *does* matter - both in terms of the survivors
social standing and in terms of the legal implications - then people will
expend effort to get the ruling they want. As a total aside, it reminds me
of the money people spend to get church annulments; total waste of
time/money/effort, but it happens.

There are many instances in the various forms of fiction and storytelling,
where people go to great lengths to make a suicide look like an accident,
so as to avoid both the social stigma and the legal consequences of a
judgment of suicide.

Again, in a well-educated, secular, society, this nonsense wouldn't exist,
but we're not there yet. But make no mistake, in the days when the Church
ran society, there was a *lot* at stake.

>To put it another way, a guy comes up to a railroad crossing. The train is
>bearing down, the lights are flashing, the bells are blaring, and the
>barriers are falling, but the guy tries to beat the train. If the train
>hits him, unless he meant to get hit, it's still an accident.

Suppose a guy plays Russian Roulette. If he does it once, just once, and
dies (unlucky, but sometimes those 16% shots come in), you might say it was
an accident. But suppose the guy plays it regularly. Eventually (and
eventually may not be very long), he's gonna die. Would you really
consider this an accident? No. If a guy is playing RR on a regular basis,
he probably (at some level) wants to die (or has some serious mental issues).

I think the same is true of people who routinely abuse drugs and alcohol.
They must know that, sooner or later, there number is going to be up.

And, mind you, if you think I'm being snotty, read the previous part of
this post. I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

P.S. This same stuff happened when Dana Plato died. There was a big
hulabaloo them about "Was it suicide or was it an accident?". My opinion
then as now was "It was suicide. So what?"

--
"Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS
crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in
TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in
bonuses, and paid no taxes? Yeah, me neither."
Kenny McCormack
2018-08-12 17:20:30 UTC
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In article <pkppr6$akh$***@news.xmission.com>,
Kenny McCormack <***@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
...
>They must know that, sooner or later, their number is going to be up.
...
>hulabaloo then about "Was it suicide or was it an accident?". My opinion

--
Rich people pay Fox people to convince middle class people to blame poor people.

(John Fugelsang)
Adam H. Kerman
2018-08-12 17:35:36 UTC
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Kenny McCormack <***@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
>David Carson <***@neosoft.com> wrote:

>...
>>People sometimes engage in self-destructive, reckless behavior without
>>making a deliberate decision to end their lives, but it ends up that way.
>>Perhaps they miscalculate the risk, or they've done similar things so many
>>times, they forget there is a risk, or deceive themselves into thinking it
>>doesn't apply to them. "I know what I'm doing." It happens a lot.

>>What I got from this article is that the coroner and the daughter are
>>saying that Kidder deliberately overdosed because she wanted to die. I
>>don't know why ***@gmail.com read the article differently - he
>>seems to be disagreeing with the coroner and the daughter for reasons that
>>are unstated - but I don't think the fact that she overdosed proves in and
>>of itself that it wasn't an accident.

>The operative question here is: Does it matter? (or: Who cares?)

>Obviously, objectively, it doesn't matter. But as long as we live in a
>regressive society where it *does* matter - both in terms of the survivors
>social standing and in terms of the legal implications - then people will
>expend effort to get the ruling they want.

We want public officials to make findings and judges to make rulings
based on evidence, not emotions. A coroner who is unwilling to do so is
unfit for duty.

As I've pointed out multiple times in this very thread, it matters if
only to try to recognize that certain people are at risk of death of
suicide or from extreme reckless behavior like this, to attempt to help
them while they've nt yet killed themselves.

>As a total aside, it reminds me of the money people spend to get church
>annulments; total waste of time/money/effort, but it happens.

I don't know that not getting an annulment leads to death in this day and age.

>There are many instances in the various forms of fiction and storytelling,
>where people go to great lengths to make a suicide look like an accident,
>so as to avoid both the social stigma and the legal consequences of a
>judgment of suicide.

>Again, in a well-educated, secular, society, this nonsense wouldn't exist,
>but we're not there yet. But make no mistake, in the days when the Church
>ran society, there was a *lot* at stake.

I guess so.

>>To put it another way, a guy comes up to a railroad crossing. The train is
>>bearing down, the lights are flashing, the bells are blaring, and the
>>barriers are falling, but the guy tries to beat the train. If the train
>>hits him, unless he meant to get hit, it's still an accident.

>Suppose a guy plays Russian Roulette. If he does it once, just once, and
>dies (unlucky, but sometimes those 16% shots come in), you might say it was
>an accident.

I would never say that because I won't substitute the word "accident"
for "reckless behavior".

>But suppose the guy plays it regularly. Eventually (and
>eventually may not be very long), he's gonna die. Would you really
>consider this an accident? No. If a guy is playing RR on a regular basis,
>he probably (at some level) wants to die (or has some serious mental issues).

I'd say he's at risk of death from the first instance.

>I think the same is true of people who routinely abuse drugs and alcohol.
>They must know that, sooner or later, there number is going to be up.

>And, mind you, if you think I'm being snotty, read the previous part of
>this post. I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

I think you sort of agree with me.

>P.S. This same stuff happened when Dana Plato died. There was a big
>hulabaloo them about "Was it suicide or was it an accident?". My opinion
>then as now was "It was suicide. So what?"
Adam H. Kerman
2018-08-12 17:25:06 UTC
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David Carson <***@neosoft.com> wrote:
>Sat, 11 Aug 2018 22:56:11 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <***@chinet.com>:
>>***@gmail.com wrote:

>>>It sounds like an accidental overdose and not suicide to me.

>>How does taking a combination of drugs and alchohol, known to have
>>adverse consequences when taken in combination, sound accidental to
>>you?

>People sometimes engage in self-destructive, reckless behavior without
>making a deliberate decision to end their lives, but it ends up that way.

Right. It's impossible for the coroner to know what the person's state
of mind is, so his finding is based on available evidence.

>Perhaps they miscalculate the risk, or they've done similar things so many
>times, they forget there is a risk, or deceive themselves into thinking it
>doesn't apply to them. "I know what I'm doing." It happens a lot.

Yeah, a potentially lethal combination of pills plus alchohol isn't
something one survives too many times.

In any event, given your hypothetical, that someone acts recklessly on a
repeat basis, that is clear evidence that the person is a suicide risk.
What more do you need?

>What I got from this article is that the coroner and the daughter are
>saying that Kidder deliberately overdosed because she wanted to die. I
>don't know why ***@gmail.com read the article differently - he
>seems to be disagreeing with the coroner and the daughter for reasons that
>are unstated - but I don't think the fact that she overdosed proves in and
>of itself that it wasn't an accident.

The fact that she's manic-depressive seems to be the evidence that
contributed to the coroner's finding.

>To put it another way, a guy comes up to a railroad crossing. The train is
>bearing down, the lights are flashing, the bells are blaring, and the
>barriers are falling, but the guy tries to beat the train. If the train
>hits him, unless he meant to get hit, it's still an accident.

The word "accident" is the wrong word to use to describe behavior that's
reckless in the extreme, criminally reckless in your hypothetical. Let's
alter your hypothetical. The guy trying to beat the train is driving. If
there were passengers in the car or passengers or crew on the train
who got killed, then the finding would be homicide, because that's
criminally reckless behavior. If the driver survives the collision,
he could be charged with reckless homicide/involuntary manslaughter/3rd
degree homicide, depending on the wording of the state's criminal code.

Unless the coroner's verdict in this situations is suicide each and
every time, society will never address these tragedies, possibly
figuring out a way to help someone at risk of suicide... while he's
still alive.

How are people at risk of death from self destructive behavior helped in
any way by a coroner's unwillingness to make a finding of suicide?
David Carson
2018-08-12 20:17:41 UTC
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On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 17:25:06 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<***@chinet.com> wrote:

>The word "accident" is the wrong word to use to describe behavior that's
>reckless in the extreme, criminally reckless in your hypothetical. Let's
>alter your hypothetical. The guy trying to beat the train is driving. If
>there were passengers in the car or passengers or crew on the train
>who got killed, then the finding would be homicide, because that's
>criminally reckless behavior. If the driver survives the collision,
>he could be charged with reckless homicide/involuntary manslaughter/3rd
>degree homicide, depending on the wording of the state's criminal code.
>
>Unless the coroner's verdict in this situations is suicide each and
>every time, society will never address these tragedies, possibly
>figuring out a way to help someone at risk of suicide... while he's
>still alive.
>
>How are people at risk of death from self destructive behavior helped in
>any way by a coroner's unwillingness to make a finding of suicide?

I don't disagree with any of your reasoning; only your position that the
terms "accident" and "negligence" don't intersect. "Accident" addresses
motive, while "negligence" addresses fault or liability.

David Carson
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Dead or Alive Data Base
http://www.doadb.com
d***@gmail.com
2018-08-12 17:34:05 UTC
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To put it another way, a guy comes up to a railroad crossing. The train is
bearing down, the lights are flashing, the bells are blaring, and the
barriers are falling, but the guy tries to beat the train. If the train
hits him, unless he meant to get hit, it's still an accident.


Exactly. This wisdom comes w age.

And, Tom Petty, like Art Bell, Tom Petty, and Margot Kidder, all had numerous drugs. All equal accidental death. It can be totally innocent. My head aches take a pill doesn’t work try a different one = accidental death.

I never take more than one medication at a time. It’s too easy to screw up!
Bermuda999
2018-08-12 18:48:59 UTC
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On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 11:20:14 PM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> It sounds like an accidental overdose and not suicide to me.
>
> Art Bell was drugged up too on scripts.

Art died from reading movie texts?
MJ Emigh
2018-08-12 22:36:45 UTC
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On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 1:49:01 PM UTC-5, Bermuda999 wrote:
> Art died from reading movie texts?

There HAVE been some dangerous ones lately.
d***@gmail.com
2018-08-12 23:20:28 UTC
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http://extratv.com/2018/08/08/superman-actress-margot-kidders-cause-of-death-released/
'Superman’ Actress Margot Kidder’s Cause of Death Released

There must have been suicide note. Otherwise, the coroner would not be able to know Margot’s intent.

😢
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